Character Creation with the Errata'd Elemental Magic

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

The errata'd virtue Elemental Magic states:

You have been trained in the ability to manipulate raw elemental Forms (Aquam, Auram, Ignem, and Terram), and view them as a connected whole rather than four separate Arts. Whenever you gain experience from a source dedicated to one of these Arts, you gain half the Source Quality in experience points in each of the other three Arts. For example, if you studied Ignem from a book with a Source Quality of 13, you would gain 7 experience points in each of Aquam, Auram, and Terram. (This would not change if, for example, you also had Book Learner or Affinity with Ignem.)

In addition, if a spell with one of these Forms as its primary Form has another element as a requisite, you use the primary Form to calculate totals, even if the requisite is lower.

How does that impact xp allocation during character creation? The new description doesn't really say. So should one allocate xp to the elemental Forms, then add 50% of what was initially spent on a Form to each of the others?

For example, let's say the player allocates 88 xp to the elemental Forms (50 xp in Terram, 28 xp in Ignem, 10 xp in Auram and 0 in Aquam). Would this result in the following scores?

  • Aquam 0 xp (initial) + 5 (Auram) + 25 (Ignem) + 14 (Terram) = 44 total xp
  • Auram 10 xp (initial) + 0 (Aquam) + 25 (Ignem) + 14 (Terram) = 49 total xp
  • Ignem 50 xp (initial) + 0 (Aquam) + 5 (Auram) + 14 (Terram) = 69 total xp
  • Terram 28 xp (initial) + 0 (Aquam) + 5 (Auram) + 25 (Ignem) = 58 total xp

If the same character also has an Affinity with Ignem, then his total xp in that Art would be increase by 25, since the xp granted by Elemental Magic does not benefit from Affinity. So total xp in Ignem would be 94.

Note that the mention of Book Learner seems only there to make sure its benefits is not applied twice. After all, Book Learner states that "When studying from books, treat them as if they were three Quality levels higher than they actually are." This means that a magus with Elemental Magic and Book Learner studying from a Q13 book in Terram would gain 16 xp in Terram and 8 xp in each of the other elemental Forms.

Am I understanding the errata correctly?

2

It's not specified, but yes, I would let XP invested at character creation affect the final scores in the way you've outlined, if only for the reason that I wouldn't want a player with Elemental Magic wondering if he should wait until gameplay starts to put in experience in the elements if the virtue isn't applied for pre-gauntlet.

3

Don't you mean 7 xp in the other Forms, as Book Learner bonus dosen't apply, only the base quality of the book.

4

No, I mean 8 for the other elemental Forms.

Book Learner raises the Source Quality when studying Ignem, and each of the other Forms get half the xp gained in Ignem.

My understanding of the "Book Learner doesn't affect the secondary xp gain" is meant as a way of telling people that the xp gained in the secondary Arts is not from book learning, it is a secondary effect from increasing your xp in the primary Form.

So I think the correct result is:

  • Ignem gains 16 xp (Q13 + 3, same as if reading a Q16 book)
  • The other Forms gain 8 xp (half the xp gain in Ignem) with no direct benefit from Book Learner.

Instead of:

  • Ignem gains 13 xp + 3 for Book Learner
  • The other Forms gain 10 xp (half of 13 rounded up + 3 for Book Learner)

I think the confusion is caused by the mention of Affinity, because in that case it would be:

  • Ignem (with Affinity) gains 13 xp * 1.5 = 20 xp
  • The other Forms gain 7 xp (because there is no Affinity there)

Or:

  • Ignem gains 13 xp
  • A secondary Form with an Affinity gains 7 xp * 1.5
  • Secondary Forms without an Affinity gain 7 xp

But that is my interpretation. Like I said in my original post, the text is a bit vague.

5

2 posts were split to a new topic: Secondary Insight

7

At a glance:

  1. That's a lot of XP, which seems sound for a major virtue. Also, it you only reap rewards after character creation, it weirdly encourage elementalists to start with as low a score as possible in elemental forms, which is dumb.
    => Go for it! :slight_smile:

  2. I think you're not supposed to factor Book Learner: I read the text as meaning "the 7xp in the secondary forms would not change it you had book learner or affinity with ignem". I may be wrong, though

8

That is certainly one interpretation. I would argue that the wording of Book Learner is clear as to what it does -- you treat the book as if its Quality was 3 higher than it is. This in turn increases the Source Quality for the study, which establish how much xp is gained in the studied elemental Form. Which, in turn, triggers the xp gain for the secondary elemental Forms.

Saying that Book Learner should not impact the xp gain on the secondary elemental Forms, even inderectly, is basically saying that Book Learner is not really doing what it does (adjust the Quality of the book) but is rather impacting the xp gain itself. It breaks the logical chain of xp gain, forcing us to establish 2 chains -- one for the primary Form and another one for the secondary Forms. I don't believe that this is what was intended.

Maybe @David_Chart can weight in on this?

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9

Noted, but I need to think about it.

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10

Hum, why not?

The way I read the errata'd virtue is: apply elemental extra xps before applying other xp boosting virtues like Book Learner, Affinity, etc.

Affinity, as it is, is quite messy because it indirectly asks you to increase xps (by saying that you have to increase Study Totals). I never do that: what I do is keep xps as usual, and just add the extra 50% when computing the final score. The result is the same but easier to track (well, at least for me) and less prone to errors because I'm easily distracted and might well end applying extra xps half a dozen times before noticing... But as I do this, keeping these extra xps out of the Affinity loop would be a mess.

1 Like
11

I think it is to prevent multiple affinities from applying. If the magus has both Affinity with Ignem and Terram, and studies in Ignem (SQ 16), applying the Ignem affinity before calculating the secondary xp in Aquam would result in:

  • Ignem gaining 16 * 1.5 = 24 xp
  • Terram gaining (24 / 2) * 1.5 xp = 18 xp

So Terram would benefit from both Affinities, which seems just plain abusive.

12

Affinity would never apply to the xp assigned to Terram in your example.
Affinity modifies the Advancement Total when you study that ability, not the xp directly.

13

I could certainly accept that and I think you are correct, now that I've reread the text for Affinity. Elemental Magic uses the Source Quality, while Affinity affects the Advancement Total. The secondary elemental Arts are given xp without using an Advancement Total.

So a magus with Elemental Magic and affinities in both Ignem and Terram, studying an Ignem source with SQ13:

  • Gains 20 xp in Ignem (SQ13 --> Adv.Total of 13 * 1.5 for affinity = 20)
  • Gains 7 xp in Terram (SQ13 / 2, which is not an Advancement Total) and the same for Aquam and Auram

Book Learner doesn't seem to follow that pattern, however, because the description for Book Learner is clear that the Source Quality is changed: "When studying from books, treat them as if they were three Quality levels higher than they actually are." So a Q13 book is actually a SQ16 to that character. So a magus with Elemental Magic and Book Learner studying from a Q13 book on Ignem:

  • Gains 16 xp in Ignem (Q13 book --> SQ16) or 24 xp if he also has an Affinity with Ignem
  • Gains 8 xp in Aquam, Auram and Terram (SQ16 / 2) in any case

If that is not the case, then the text of Book Learner should probably be changed to say that it adds 3 to the Advancement Total instead of affecting the effective Quality of the book.

But that would put it at odds with Apt Student, which specifically says "When being taught or trained by someone else, add five to the Source Quality." (Which, by the way, means that Apt Student does increase the amount of xp gained by the secondary elemental Forms.)

14

The interpretation is interesting. One mim-max exploitation if one wanted to be a specialist in one element is drive that element as high as one can in character creation and have the rest at 0. In play exploit the high XP low maximum summae to get a better XP progression in the preferred element than would otherwise be possible.

I think it is bizarre to have the elementalist with 0 in the other elemental skills, so I think having the character pay the XP, then 50% of the XP be allocated to the other forms is the sensible option.

15

On the actual question of the thread: I haven't checked the arithmetic, but I agree with your interpretation. The perverse incentives of not applying the Virtue this way would be terrible.

On the controversial issue, I think the need to avoid double counting led to a situation that is, at best, confusing. There is also the need to make sure that addition and multiplication happen in the intended order. (Which is that you add 3 for Book Learner, and include that when multiplying for 1.5 for Affinity.)

There is definitely a good argument for Arthur's position. Book Learner says that you are good at learning from books, so if you are an Elementalist, you learn lots about elements from books. Affinity with Ignem means you are good at Ignem, so you shouldn't be better at Aquam even if you are an Elementalist.

So, could we say "Virtues and other modifiers that affect the Source Quality (like Adept Student and Book Learner) do affect the number of XP gained in the other Arts, while Virtues and other modifiers that affect the Advancement Total (like Affinity) do not."?

It's been a few months; we can give this another go-around.

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16

@Arthur:
It gets worse.
If we use affinity before calculating secondary XP, it means that an affinity is the primary element also applies to secondary gain.

So, if a maga with a Terram affinity gains 12 xp in ignem, she'd gain a total of 30 (12+6+6+6) total xp.
If she gains 12 xp (before affinity) in Terram, this would become 45 (18+9+9+9)!

If we take affinity as a model, considering that it add 50% of the base xp per instance, this would mean that, instead of an increase by 150% over base XP (going from 12 to 30), which is kinda like applying 3 times an affinity bonus, we'd get an increase by 275%, applying 5.5 times an affinity bonus when we "just" have 4 virtue points.

So IMO, either we treat the 2 differently, or we just don't factor them at all

IMO, much better and clearer.

This separates the 2 models, but makes more sense while avoiding the "multiple affinity" boost

17

Fortunately, we can exclude that possibility quickly with the current wording, because Affinity multiplies the Advacement Total, while Elemental Magic specifically uses the Source Quality to calculate the secondary xp.

That would certainly help. I would suggest expanding the example to illustrate this "For example, if you studied Ignem from a book with a Source Quality of 13, you would gain 7 experience points in each of Aquam, Auram, and Terram. If you also have the Book Learner virtue, the Source Quality would be 16 and you would gain 8 experience points in each of Aquam, Auram, and Terram."

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18

Yes, the example would need to be tweaked to make the possibilities clear. And I would need to check that all the Virtues were clear about what they affected.

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19

It is clear that Affinity with Ignem should not affect the number of xp you get in the other three Arts.

If you are studying Ignem, should Affinity with Aquam boost the number of xp you get in Aquam thanks to this Virtue?

The argument for "no" is that we can then be consistent that these sorts of bonus xp do not get boosted, which is likely to be safest.

The argument for "yes" is that you have an Affinity in Aquam, so you should get more xp.

How do people feel about the balance here?

20

I would prefer it, if Affinity with Aquam in your example would result in more xp.

Otherwise we might be at a point again, where people might feel bad for not getting their full value out of Affinity, since it could well count only for a fraction of the xp spent their.

Also, that would make it easier on automatically calculating Excel sheets, I think.

Maybe clarify by wording it, that a source for an Element also counts as a lesser source for the other 3?

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21

I think affinities should not apply to the secondary xp.

As it is, affinity applies to Advancement Totals only. So for it to apply to the secondary xp, it would be needed to create an advancement total for the secondary Arts, instead of just applying a number of xp to them. This seems more complicated.
Once you have an Advancement Total there are an unknown number of other virtues that may also apply, potentially adding a lot more xp than expected or intended.

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