Character creation

As it happens, I really couldn't care less how much vis my magus starts out the saga with. We'll have a solid vis salary and I'll have Philosophic Alchemy, so I should have enough moving forward.

What I really do care about is how much vis my magus has to work with during development. My current plan is to go heavily into magic items to deal with the Dominion Aura, including some invested items (particularly a talisman). The idea is a magus with relatively few spells known, but a passel of magic items to make up for the missing spells. Of course that ends up taking a lot of vis compared with a conventional magus who learns spells, since you have to pay vis for magic items whereas spells are free. Moreover, you have to open an invested item with a full compliment of vis, even if you don't fill it up until later. (This is exacerbated by the ability of a Hermetic Alchemist to open up an invested item with more vis than usual. Toss in a familiar and a longevity ritual and the vis they cost and things can get pretty expensive. (more than 75 vis.)

In fact, that was one of the reasons that I decided on the Philosophic Alchemy build, to be able to afford to make a lot of magic items instead of learning a lot of spells. I suspect that silveroak, playing a Verditius magus, is in somewhat the same boat. I'm guessing part of the reason he took a PVS was to be able to afford to make items - though as a Verditius he can make invested items more cheaply, an option I don't have. I have to pay full freight for every invested item meaning that even if he and I started off with the exact same invested items, I'd have paid vastly more vis to create my versions. The end result is that my character is a bit of a vis hog (specially compared to a Verditius magus). But I thought that was okay because I have a magus who is supposed to be able to generate large amounts of vis.

Now, I'm perfectly happy to start out with only a moderate amount of vis at game start, saying that he spent most of it on gifts, bribes, healings, or whatever. I can understand that starting out with too much vis could be unbalancing. But I want to know whether I'll have enough vis to make the items I'm interested in making. Going strictly by the rules, the character could easily have made more than enough vis to account for even the most ambitious magic item building plan. But I'm frankly not certain whether even 75 vis would cover a modest magi item building plan, not when you include a familiar and a longevity ritual.

Furthermore, there's the issue of how long it takes to accumulate a quantity of vis. One of the reasons I was looking at a per year amount was to account for differing hermetic ages. 25 vis accumulated over the course of 5 years is a lot. 25 vis accumulated over 25 years is a paltry amount. I haven't settled on a hermetic age yet, but it seems like our hermetic ages are ranging from 20-50 years so far (not counting your character), a pretty big gap. It just seemed to me that saying all magi have the same vis to work with during development puts the older magi at a huge disadvantage.

That having been said, I can see the desire to fall back on BP for play balance reasons. Maybe a fair compromise is to say that silveroak and I each start off with a lump sum payment for our respective virtues (25 and 75, as you suggest, or whatever number we decide is fair), and any excess we need is paid for out of the BPs we have. It means that my character has frittered away a staggering amount of vis, but I'm willing to accept that.

In the end, I just want to be certain that my magus has enough vis to make the magic items I'd hoped to make. Looking at the character build, he ought to have no problem. I don't want to seem greedy, but with a major and a minor virtue devoted to vis collection, the character should have the vis he needs.

I'm not sure why they would disqualify the use of Philosophic Alchemy. The rules on PA say that you need to be in the lab every day and that using PA counts as a 7 day distraction from other lab work (though not a distraction that takes you from the lab). Working overtime (early riser or nocturnal, for example) or using Planetary Magic doesn't seem to disqualify you from using PA. Both activities have you in the lab every day. It seems like you could tend the vis extraction well in your off minutes when performing those activities just fine.

Magi have the Gift. As a result, they do not suffer warping from being in a high Magical Aura.

The only reason I'm for disallow this stacking of unusual lab work is that during character creation there is no distraction from lab what in a normal chase when you doing this stacking might end in a bad result for you. So my proposal here is to limit our self to only one modification to the lab work time per season pre game be it planetary magic, Philosophic Alchemy, unusual working times and so on.

Beside there are quite some way to gain vis that we can't simulate like my character can use longterm fatigue instead of vis for rituals with duration moment.

I can see the logic in that.

in terms of initially setting up labs there are certainly covenants where this can be done by a servant with sufficient magic theory, it isn't like we are in the wilderness of Hibernia or something. This also gets into the question though of when someone moves to Thessilonika and increases their lab aura to 6...

This is a valid point. Of course, it also applies to improving labs as well. Once the camel gets its nose under the tent, the rest wants to follow.

This goes back to a question I had, which is whether we can keep our (Aura 3) labs or not. Because if we can't keep our Aura 3 labs then it may not be worth it to spend seasons upgrading them.

But, as silveroak points out, if our labs are in Thessaloniki, then why are they Aura 3? That implies that they're somewhere else first.

This is something we need to work out.

For my part, I'd be happy just saying that we keep the same labs and that we get an Aura of 6 pre-game, now that we've settled on what the covenant's Aura will be. The other option, as silveroak points out is to set some arbitrary point at which we move to Thessaloniki. But unless we all just moved to Thessaloniki, we'd have had some seasons in a THessaloniki lab with an Aura of 6.

Yes most of the time such service is done by a failed apprentice but we didn't rule that we had paid one for this service or even have one permanent at our covenant who then in return want a longevity ritual at some point.
I suspect such a service would cost 2-3 vis per season so 4-6 to set up the basic lab.
But if we can pay for someone to set the labs up for us the question have to arise why we can't later also pay for such a failed apprentice to get 5 more to our lab total (2 Int + 3 Magic Theory)?

We decided to have a aura of 6 in a regio by now! So why would we go with just a 3 aura pre game? Our whole covenant story would break apart if we all just set up the labs during 1219.
(Beside that I then can complete rework my character as every season spend in improving the lab would have been wasted)

Technically anyone with sufficient Magic Theory can set up a lab. They don't have to be a failed apprentice. According to the rules there's no reason you can't have an ungifted (non-failed-apprentice) grog lab assistant with Magic Theory. He just needs to buy a virtue that allows him to get Arcane Abilities. But once that's done, all he needs is MT 3 to set up a lab - not a huge hurdle. One questions even whether you would need to specifically pay someone a bonus for that. It would arguably be what you have a grog lab assistant for. He or she would just be doing the job you pay them a wage for.

Yes, we determined that the covenant will have a level 6 Aura. However, we initially stated that for pre-game development, we would assume a 3 Aura. That's where the conflict arises. Do we use Aura 3 like we said or Aura 6 like we have? Using Aura 3 would imply that we started somewhere else and eventually moved to Thessaloniki (with all the headache that would cause), while using an Aura 6 would require us to change our assumptions about pre-game development.

I say we go with the Aura of 6 pre game as not doing this would break apart to much of the story we thought up for the covenant and also would make any pre game lab refinement to be wasted. In my opinion the aura of 3 was just a crutch that we already could start with the creation for the character.

The problem is that then the question gets raised as to whether we can take a lab season reading books that we buy with build points, because realistically it will be a rare season when the book has a SQ under 10...

No, just no we go with 10 exp in season we don't do anything specific beside learning and maybe a week distraction or 0 exp per lab etc. season. If we start to allow book study then the next question come up why lab season not give exposure or where the 10 exp come from.

A other question the group still have to answer:

There's many ways that our abstraction of pre-game development is sub-optimal. The assumptions about Living conditions and Aura were taken from the ArM5 book. I'd rather not recalculate lab totals for an Aura 6 lab vs. Aura 3. If the other players think we should use the higher, then do so.

Here are my thoughts on pre-game abstractions. As I see it, there are two types of abstractions we're using: One is to make the math easier, the other is to avoid having to decide the details of a previous covenant.

Giving 10 xp per season is designed to make the math easier. If you did things in more detail you might get 15 xp one season for reading a book, 12 xp another season for learning from a teacher, and then 2 xp another season for exposure. But then you'd have to figure out a whole lot of details about how you arrived at those numbers. Instead, we just even that all out and say you get 10 xp per season so we don't have to figure out every book you read and the skill of every teacher who's taught you.

Once you switch to seasonal advancement there's nothing inconsistent about what you did previously. Before you were making an estimate of how much xp you were getting, now you're tracking it exactly. You might argue that you'd have read more books and that Book Learner would have made a difference, but that's only conjecture. 10 xp per year could have been what you got on average.

Assuming a +3 Aura and a +1 Living Conditions modifier is there because we assume that the players advanced at a different covenant and we don't want to have to figure out the details of every possible previous covenant. So, we just assume +3 Aura and +1 Living Conditions and call it done.

Things are a little different when you assume that you advanced at the current covenant. In that case you know the Aura and the Living Conditions modifier. In that case it would be odd to say that pre-game you experience one Aura and Living Conditiona and post-game you experience another.

Once you switch to seasonal advancement there's something inconsistent about what you did previously. Why did the Aura in Thessaloniki suddenly go from +3 to +6, and why did the Living Conditions modifier suddenly go from +1 to +3? That would represent an oddity that would be hard to explain.

Also, using the actual Aura and Living Conditions modifier doesn't require you to do any heavy math. You just plug in those numbers instead of the other ones and you're done. No specific calculations are required for each season.

That's why I agree that we should keep the 10 xp per season abstraction (even for books we buy), but should move to use Thessaloniki's Aura and Living Conditions modifier for pre-game activity.

Complete agreement from my side.

keep in mind that seasonal advancement is allowed by RAW, but that the 30xp/yr was for simplicity. Obviously figuring out what books are available pre-move is incredibly complicated, but post move we will shortly have everything documented...

OK, we can do that. Can we also add lab improvements? This will change totals.

I did some refinement and installed new minor / major virtues in the lab during the 60 years I already put online. Problematic are the free virtues as they are bound to magic items or other special circumstances.

My suggestion was already that for the lab inprovements where we pay with character development time we don't need to pay with BP.

I am in agreement that if you spend pre-game seasons refining your lab or adding improvements or making lab items that you should not have to pay for those virtues with BPs. Otherwise it's too much like double taxation.

I concur.

This seems to be the last post we have regarding plans for how we account for vis pre-game. Does this work for everyone? Does it need modification? Should we go in a different direction? I need this information to proceed with my character.