I am looking at a Tytalus Shapeshifter/Healer. She heals her enemies to that they can fight and conflict with her more. She causes trouble around her without really even trying. She loves her animal forms which will be dolphin, Golden Eagle and some form of land animal (debating lion, fox, or some other form of predator).
Her magic has a chaotic element to it that shows up in her spontaneous spell and lab work to match her own mercurial nature and the chaos around her. Things are always calm or insane about her and she loves shape shifting in ways and yet no one believes her responsible generally. She loves conflict.
Her Pater was firm and harsh that worked her and pushed her hard to excel. She managed to pass her gauntlet on the second attempt when she manifested her third animal shape, one that he did not know she had learned and mastered in secret along with an arcane connection that she managed to steal and hide just before the gauntlet.
Well, firstly, I don't necessarily agree with all of your points regarding potent magic in general above... yet, in a condensed version of a response, I don't think it is quite so onerous or limiting as you make it seem. Foci items do not have to 'unique' to a given spell and can be re-used between spells or even made with multiple materials etc. so that they can serve a variety of purposes/spells. There are examples in the writeup of potent magic to this effect.
I don't think 'Potent Magic:Certamen' is any bit more nebulous in the application of the rules than a 'Magical Focus: Certamen'. If you look specifically at the language of a magical focus it is also very much written more with spellcasting and lab-totals in mind than anything else. Those are the most common uses of mojo in the game after all. But taking those mechanics and applying them to Certamen is actually something new to 5th ed, and which I think is a remarkably elegant and simple solution to prior editions problems of trying to make Tremere better at Certamen and yet how to do so without it being stupidly expensive to where people didn't want to buy it etc. Extending that to a new virtue that is said to operate in areas analagous to magical foci I don't think is too much of a stretch.
Essentially my point of discombobulation is over the relationship with the Pater and the manner of the gauntlet and how the whole shapeshifting thing works into it. Nothing wrong with a shapeshifting Tytalus mind you. Or one that likes to make her own life more difficult by keeping their enemies around. This is all fine, and even interesting.
The gauntlet of House Tytalus however is fairly explicitly defined in the Tytalus section of Societates. If you haven't you should check out the 'Apprenticeship' section of the writeup starting on page 82 and leading into a discussion of the gauntlet on page 83. Essentially the gauntlet revolves around pushing the student to a point of rebellion. You have to 'lose it', basically. You either snap and express physis against the unreasonable nomos of the Tytalus training regimen or you fail. Only once this is done, this ability to reject nomos, express physis, and really and truly genuinely be your own person if you will... will they even consider holding the eristic moot to judge your readiness in some other way. Then you have a contest of some sort with your Pater and they judge your readiness for Magi-hood etc.
The whole shapeshifting thing somehow equaling passing her gauntlet just left me going 'Huh? What does shapeshifting have to do with it?'. Not that I suppose it couldn't be factored in somehow. But it doesn't at face value seem to be something that would.
The Tytalus has to prove themselves equal of their master.
The shapeshift let her get arcane connection to boost penetration (with other planning) to get some spells past her pater's parma and defenses to defeat him. He knew her shapes (or thought he did (he knew of her eagle and dolphin shapes) until she developed her third shape and that one she used to get the upper hand. (I am really leaning hard for shape that matched his familiar (once I decide it) or a rat/ferret/cat.
The actual spell she used was Pilum of Fire. She made sure he survived it though.
I would like the opinion of the group on the following spells for my warrior Tremere. I know LadyP doesn't like them already, but... as should be obvious there are multiple things we don't see 'eye to eye' on. I'm interested in what the rest of the group thinks of me taking these for him to fight with.
The Bellicose Magus
Rego Terram 30
R: Touch D: Sun T: Individual
This spell is designed to provide assistance and augmentation to the mundane fighting ability of a warrior-magus under it’s effects. It assists with the execution of mundane martial techniques and positioning of the fighter’s weapon by using Rego magic to reposition the user’s weapon. The effect is not continuously active during it’s duration and in fact is constantly activating and deactivating as needed, under ( minimal ) mental direction, to assist the swordsman with maneuvers and techniques. This gives the user the option of when and how to apply the benefits of the effect to their fighting. Mostly this amounts to the decision as to whether or not to allow the spell to directly assist with bringing a strike home or whether to merely use it to aid in repositioning/recovery and the execution of techniques. The user can thus add their Finesse score into attack and defense totals/checks undertaken under it’s effects. This bonus is limited to up to doubling the ability score in question as the utility of the effect is limited by the knowledge/skill of the user in this regard. If the effect is allowed to fully assist and bring strikes directly to the target, then +10 may be added to damage as well, from the additional force on impact. This option however makes the strike susceptible to penetration/magic resistance as it means the effect is active on the weapon at the moment of the attack. If this option is not elected to be used, then spell is –not- active on the weapon at the moment of impact and therefore the strike is not susceptible to penetration/magic resistance. Magi skilled in fighting using this technique have been known to execute impossible seeming feats of dexterity and/or swordsmanship while under it’s effects. Requisites according to the form of the weapon in question are sometimes appropriate. This writeup assumes that the user is under the effect of a similar effect that augments their movements with their body. If this is not the case the bonuses received have a -3 penalty, due to the hands/body potentially not being able to 'keep up' with the movements of the weapon.
Base: 3 ( Control or move dirt in a very unnatural fashion ) +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +4 Complexity
Will Over The Self
Rego Corpus 30
R: Personal D: Sun T: Individual
This spells is designed to provide assistance and augmentation to the mundane fighting and athletic ability of the warrior-magus under it’s effects. This is achieved by fine control over the motions over the body being assisted by Rego magic, in a selective/directed way similar to ‘The Bellicose Magus’. This allows the user to control when this assistance is being applied and how. This provides the target with the ability to add their finesse score to any unarmed attack or defense rolls/checks, and to athletics oriented rolls/checks, due to the assistance of the spell. These bonuses still rely on the individual skill/aptitude of the user to a given degree and thus can only up to double the ability in question. The user may elect whether, in a combative application, the spell provides continuous effect through a full attack. If this is done the attack is subject to magic resistance due the presence of the spell, yet applies +5 to the damage of the attack. More than this is possible with the force achievable with Rego magic, yet not without the force becoming great enough to risk harming the body of the user in the process. If this option is not used the attack is not resisted because the spell is not in effect during the actual attack. The feats of athleticism achievable under this effect benefit from an additional benefit, that the spell takes up the burden of the user’s weight and can indeed move the user’s entire body if somewhat weakly compared to a full ‘flight’ spell. This allows for more prolonged and intricate acrobatics or flying ‘Jedi’ leaps as it were to become possible.
Base 10 ( Control a target’s motions ), +2 Sun, +2 Complexity, +1 Additional Effect ( Rego Corpus 5: Move a target slowly in any direction you please, even if the target is unsupported. )
The reason I don't like them is that only one thing can be controlling a weapon or object: two forces will put them in contradiction not in conjunction. Either your mind through your magic is moving it or the muscles are moving it. The hand try to move it one way, the magic another. You are not to get best of both, you are more likely to get one sabotaging and working AGAINST the other for lowering score in net effect.
Being as my inclination is to make magic superior in this case, I would rule this is good way to use finesse instead of weapon skill for fighting. A huge advantage actually since you only need one finesse skill instead of multiple weapon skills (brawl, single weapon, great weapon, bows, etc).
Equality is exactly what these guys are against, in a nutshell. No one expects a brand new mage to be the equal of their Master. In the least the Tytalus.
The idea of general blanket social equality is exactly one of the things that they -abhor- in their philosophy. They beleive in -merit-. And that not everyone has the same ammount of it. So the powerful, those with genuine ability, they are well and truly -better- than the next guy. And should be treated like it.
Like I said... the guantlet is about Physis vs. Nomos. Nature and Power vs the constraints of Custom and Social Mores if you will. No one expects the apprentice to 'win' vs. a full Magus. The 'test' is about whether or not you have genuine ability, even if fledgling, and whether your -Mind- is in the right place. Whether you have mentally acheived the will/state to throw off Nomos and express your Physis.
Blasting your Pater with a Pilum of Fire does not, in and of itself, demonstrate anything of the like. It 'could', in context, but... some kind of duel or the like with your Pater as your gauntlet to me just seems to display a lack of understanding of what the Tytalus training regimen is all about. Because it really isn't about power, or equality, or really even first and foremost magic.
The apprentice must make serious effort to force acceptance, a moot is called for the gauntleting. "The apprentice passes his gauntlet if he can make his master accept as an equal."
Then there is also this passage: "an apprentice who succeeds in killing his master at any point in his apprenceship is elevated to the status of magus immediately."
An apprentice that managed to get arcane connection, vis and prepare the sympathetic connections for pentrating master's parma when the moot is called and gets combat spell through the elder mages parma to wound him badly is going to be accepted as equal in ways and pass their gauntlet.
Finally, it is about magic and must include magic: "the apprentice can choose the type of struggle, but if he does not introduce magic into the conflict, the master will."
The tytalus are about conflict making you stronger. Ending apprenticeship is proving your Physis overwhelms the Nomes (master keeping you down as apprentice) to make new name for yourself. It is conflict.
I don't like these effects either.
They make no sense to me, whether from the perspective of a swordsman of from the perspective of Ars Magica rules.
However, as it looks like I'll have to bow out of the saga anyway due to RL time constraints that's probably not an important point anyway.
Mad Max said I could still join in September, I've just gotten my internet back and there are less than 20 boxes left to unpack - so I wanted to ask if the offer is still true.
This is significantly different from your original 'passes her gauntlet by manifesting a new shapeshifting shape previously unknown to her master' statement, wouldn't you agree?
My apologies - I've come late to this discussion - but this item is a hot potato in my campaign with the players. The wording quite clearly says 'If a magus studies one elemental Form in a season, he may assign one additional XP to each of the other 3. That means you don't get half the xp spent as you say above. I'm happy for whatever house rule folk see fit, but I'm interested in picking up your collective wisdom here because of how it affects a game I'm running (where I've ruled as per my example - not Max's).
I used different rules for the apprenticeship xp and the 7 years post gauntlet. For the apprenticeship there is half the xp spent on one elemental art spent on the other three. After that there is 1xp in each of the other elemental arts.
She made sure he survived it though.