Character Development

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Falling Leaves
81

I cringed when the subject of wards came up.

My two cents, and i'll try to be brief but clear.

A "ward" is any kind of Rego spell that is protective in nature and measures its range from the magus to the thing protected and not to the thing protected against.

Some wards affect how a thing acts around the warded subject. For example, Cloak of Duck's Feathers (ReAq5) is a ward because its range is Touch (i.e. the object/person touched, which is then warded against water as described in the spell.) Clearly the caster is not "touching" each bit of water that comes into contact with the object for until the next sunrise/sunset. It makes liquid roll off the object without making it wet. As I read it, the subject is touched by the water, it just rolls of him. Otherwise the base would have to be higher (Working backwards from HoH: S, the base to ward against natural liquids is 5). Similarly, the ReAn 5 ward I originally posted is a "ward" in this sense that doesn't prevent touch.

Other wards are the "true wards" that prohibit the warded Form from touching the warded object at all. Ward Against Heat and Flames falls into this category as does the ReAn 15 spell I posted earlier. Also in this category are the well known circular wards against foos, with their added benefit of prohibiting the warded Form from affecting the circle, or across it.

Finally "Warding" is a supernatural ability of the Columbae which has its own set of caveats.

For the record, I subscribe to the "wards have to penetrate" school, although Form specific wards (i.e. ReAu Ward against Fairies of the Air vs. ReVi Ward against Fairies) get to double the usual penetration from the casting roll. E.g. when casting a Level 15 ReAu Ward against Fairies of the Air, the casting score ends up at 20. Normally this would give a penetration total of 5. Since the ward is Form specific that is doubled to 10. Had the maga used a generic Fairy Ward (ReVi 15) the penetration would have been only 5. If you incorporate an arcane connection into the ward spell you can boost penetration normally, however the spell then only wards against the specific individual that donated the AC.

82

I'm still waiting for my store to stock RoP:M. So, I'm not sure what the total aura should be! My thought is that most of the covenant has an aura of 4, maybe with a spike around your spirit to get it up to warping level.

83

Magic Auras arise from awesome natural features and from magical creatures, places and legacies. The two tend to attract each other, with magical things changing the landscape and inspiring places attracting magic. Each can contribute up to 5. This area is both beautiful (I saw some modern pictures, and wow! without modern modification and with Mythic Europe, this is probably a spectacular natural area) and has a magical stuff, so both contribute to the Aura.

I suspect that the magical stuff is at least half of that. So a 6 or 7 is likely for Deborah's Hive of Horror. On the other hand, if the magical stuff was put here because this was already an auspicious place for magic, the Hive of Horror will have an 8.

Anyway,

Ken

84

On the subject of Ability Summae, and in particular Magic theory, my thoughts for discussion.

A Level 4 summa in an ability is nothing to sneeze at, and is certainly not a "primer." In order to write such a book the author had to have a magic theory of 8. Unless I'm missing someone (and pending the new Magi of Hermes book) the highest Magic Theory score by a published character is an 8 (Archmagus who is the second oldest magus at Durenmar and thus has free access to lots of tractatus on MT). Across the Order, there may be higher MT scores (dedicated bonisagi) but they are probably not also "Good Teachers" with high Communication scores. Even if they were, it takes tremendous time to reach the levels of writing a level 6 or 7 summa.

In my estimation no mundane will ever write a summa higher than Level 7. Even the most gifted and dedicated just can't get to that level in a reasonable lifespan. Among magi, on subjects of great interest L8 is just within the realm of the possible, but unlikely. A dedicated PC could reach L9 or L10 (and earn a name for himself that would shine in history alongside the Founders and their ilk).

My reasoning is thus, assume that L6 Summa are readily available. Our imaginary scholar reads that book and reaches MT 6. In order to write a Level 7 book he needs to reach Level 14 himself. That's another 420 XP. how many sound tractatus have been written on MT? the library in Durenmar has "dozens" of tractatus but the average Quality is an abysmal 8. He would need over 50 such tractatus to reach Level 14. Most magi simply won't have access to that many tractatus, although to be fair they will select higher quality ones, but there will be years where it is simply not possible to lay hands on a MT tractatus. Those seasons he will have to practice at lowly 4xp, or work in the lab to claim 2xp and actually accomplish something. The reasonable best effort would be around 20xp per year into magic theory. (Say two Q8 tractatus and practice, or two Q8 tractatus and two seasons exposure). it still takes 21 years to get to the level to write his book. That's if his supply of tractatus is uninterrupted, which is just not likely. And the magus has not increased his arts, done work for his covenant, adventured etc., etc.,

A more balanced maga is likely to focus on MT one season per year for an average gain of around 10xp. That means is 42 years before he can write his book.

Once Level 7 books are avaiable, getting to Level 8 is even harder and Level 9 more so.

So what are the reasonable maximums across the order? For most arcane abilities, i think its 6, maybe a 7. For Magic Theory, I'd say maybe Notatus managed a level 8 tome before succumbing to Twilight. I'm inclined to treat Bonisaginus' Principae Magica like the Bible- maybe Level 10 Q 5 (just a little better than working it out on your own). The other half the time i think its probably a great primer in M.T. with the advanced stuff coming later as the theory was refined by the Order (maybe a L3 Q15) or the like.

Regardless, your L4 tome is only "inferior" because most wizards get excellent training (to Level 3) in MT from their mentors. Carnacis does have higher level MT books, and they will make them available as you prove yourselves competent and worthy.

85

Hi,

I thoroughly agree with your analysis, and as Ken I'm not complaining. I do see a 4 summa as pretty low, though, because, as you point out, most wizards get excellent training, so the book isn't very useful for most wizards.

blink I'm an idiot. Don't quote me. :slight_smile: Deborah doesn't have a problem. Never mind. :slight_smile: Animal specialty.

Anyway,

Ken

86

Might want to add this to the Peripheral Code (House Rules)!

87

Good call, and done.

88

I was wondering how important House Lore is? Several of the magi have it already, but I reckon it could be seen as a specialised form of OoH lore? Like a precise Area lore ?

89

On the subject of books, I did run into two problems...

  1. Yes, the Magic Theory book is a bit low, and I would consider it a "primer" because 4 is almost always the score I start with out of Gauntlet. Yes, it takes a score of 8 to write it, and I have seen some pretty powerful characters top out at 8. However, these guys were not lab rats or scholars or authors. No one is studying his books, They all want a copy of Carl's Ultimate Magic Theory Summa (L8, Q11), and if they can't get that, they will at least wwant a copy of Carl's Jr's Awesome Magic Theory Summa that is Almost as Good (L6, Q9). And yes, I know you would need a score of 16, and yes I indeed have seen a Magic Theory score get that high. Everyome will want a copy of your book, even if you suck as an author.

  2. We have no book on Parma Magica. I realized that after five years my Parma score is still one, which is highly unusual for me (as I normally play combat focused Flambeau magi, my Parma is usually 3 or 4 by the five year mark). Was this an oversight or are you in the "no Parma books" camp? If the second is true, Polyoppeties will eventually craft a subversive author Persona and start distributing Parma tractati to Sring Covenants throughout the order :smiley:
    No, seriously, what is your stand on Parma Magica books?

90

Hi,

I took it for Deborah because House Criamon is a Mystery Cult; I expect that a parens will consider the lore of that cult, its dogma, its workings and its ways, to be at least as important as Arts. This stuff is represented by Criamon Lore. But some other House might care less. I imagine that a young Guernicus will be taught stuff that applies to everyone, demonstrating the universality of the Quaesitors, with the Guernicus-specific lore deferred for decades.

Anyway,

Ken

91

There are better MT books in the world than L4. And I totally agree that it is the good books that get copied and that good books push bad books out of the economy. But I just don't see lots of Level 7 or 8 books laying around, and when they are avaiable they are not given to the barely-even-magi younglings to spill ink and toad blood on. Among the Gifted, and especially the Order knowledge=power. Those that have power are not above holding out mere crumbs of knowledge as a way of controlling and directing the younger magi.

Seriously, I am in the no parma books camp. (I didn't realize we had a camp! Maybe we'll have smores? :mrgreen:). I posted earlier that you can get training at a source quality of 12 for two seasons for 2 pawns of vis each season as a custom of training in the parma around the order. Asking a maga fortraining is very honoring to the asked maga, a sign of great respect. Refusing such a request is seen as highly rude and just "not the done thing." I'll find that post later and move it to the Peripheral Code thread.

92

Hi,

The thing I noticed about the lack of books for Parma is that Deborah is encouraged to adventure and work in the lab. Five of those 10xp can go to Parma! For exposure, 1 or 2 can go to Parma. Between the lack of books for Nature Lore, and the lack of books for Parma, Deborah is getting more than 1 story per three years. (A season of Exposure gives her 2+1xps, and a season of Practice gives her 4+1xps for Parma, and 6+1 or 7+1 xps for Nature Lore. But the Exposure also gives something else.)

Anyway,

Ken

93

Hi,

The thing I noticed about the lack of books for Parma is that Deborah is encouraged to adventure and work in the lab. Five of those 10xp can go to Parma! For exposure, 1 or 2 can go to Parma. Between the lack of books for Nature Lore, and the lack of books for Parma, Deborah is getting more than 1 story per three years. (A season of Exposure gives her 2+1xps, and a season of Practice gives her 4+1xps for Parma, and 6+1 or 7+1 xps for Nature Lore. But the Exposure also gives something else.)

Anyway,

Ken

94

:frowning:

Might I ask what your reasoning upon this is? In my mind, Parma texts are something the Order would want widely distributed. It is what makes us strong and enforces our peace. Like texts on Arts or other Hermetic abilities, they are of no use to anyone outside of our Order. In fact, it is they that need to worry about putting their knowledge into texts. We are Hermetic, and the very connotation of being "Hermetic" places emphisis on the fact that we obtain and share knowledge through Books.

As for camps :mrgreen: , how would the magi who insist on "no Parma books" enforce this idea upon those magi who think that "many Parma books, or even just some" is the better idea?
This can be a storyhood even! Right now, Polyoppeties has three distinct Personas, each of whom things that they are the "true" Polyoppeties. My goal is four, and I have not quite yet settled on my fourth. The original idea was a youthful lass named Marcia, developed after he becomes old and seeks to recapture his youth. But this subversive author idea, it has merit. I could have my fourth Persona be that instead (or as well).

But anyway, your game = your rules. Polyoppeties needs to find the time to take some training from someone else :slight_smile:

95

Hi,

You know what would have been really evil? To have given Poly an amazing Com and Good Teacher, traits shared by all the personalities.

Then have each of them write Tractati reflecting their diverse insights on the same Art or Ability score, quadruple dipping.......

Anyway,

Ken

96

My reasoning is that the "big secret" of the Order is universal magical resistance, i.e. the parma. In my mind the risk of the secrets of the parma falling into the hands of anyone outside the Order would be seen as absolute disaster. It is the parma that 1) let the Order form and work so closely together and 2)gives unique, universal magic resistance on par with that of spirits of the Realms, and 3) allows The Order to simply dominate the magical landscape of Mythic Europe. The thought of an Order of Odin equipped with general magical resistance and able to work closely together probably provokes nightmares among magi. Especially since it wasn't that long ago that the Order did face a foe equipped with magic resistance (the Diedne), and it was not clear at the outset who would win.

Since a book is easily portable knowledge, its danger is much more insidious that just a magus with the same knowledge. For example, even a fairly junior magus can "borrow" a few books. Worse, books can be copied. At least if Traitorus ex Miscellania goes rogue and starts teaching his old Hedgie pals the parma, you can March him, interrogate him (with mind rending magic, since he is no longer a magus of the Order) and then kill all of his apprentices. But if a book is copied you may not even notice the threat growing as the book is studied, copied, and passed around. You may never know everyone who has read it. You may never know if you got the last copy, killed the last wizard. If even only one survives the monopoly of the order is threatened.

So how do control this hugely valuable secret, while still getting use out of it? You don't let anyone write it down, you vet and indoctrinate those you teach (like, in a 15 year apprenticeship), and you swear (and deliver) swift, overwhelming punishment to anyone who breaches the secret. If there are parma books, somewhere in the Order, they are highly secret and under heavy, implicitly trusted guard.

How is this ban enforced? The same way the other Hermetic laws are enforced. Tribunal and the threat of swift, devastating reprisal for any breaches. In my conception of the Order, writing the secrets of the parma magica was ruled a High Crime by the First Tribunal* (based on the "endangering the Order" clause.) Because of the perceived danger, offenders are (almost) always subject to March. I like the flavor that one of you posted in a thread: a master speaking to his student: "Now listen closely, for what I am about to tell you must never be written down."

*probably at the insistence of Flambeau given what could happen in the Sahir got access to parma magica.

97

Hi,

I love this idea for its atmosphere. It lends your saga a distinct feel.

I've had a bunch of problems with Parma, including this one. (In the saga I don't run, Parma works differently. A magus' magic resistance equals the sum of the scores of his highest Technique plus his lowest Technique plus his appropriate Form plus his Parma Magica Ability. The Parma Magica Ability also indicates how many people Parma can protect. A score of 1 protects a magus and his familiar. Higher scores add targets, all of whom get the full magic resistance. Parma does not go down at sunrise and sunset, because attacks then are obvious and cheesy. You have to see someone and spend a round concentrating to extent Parma to him, and can do this without consent. Parma remains on a target until you withdraw it. This version of Parma has an insidious side effect that Trianoma probably liked a lot: Parma isn't very useful without an investment in the Hermetic Arts! Hedge Wizards who learn the Parma without authorization are increasingly likely to seek Hermetic training. The other interesting thing about this is that a magus' Parma score says a lot about his experience. A newly Gaunleted magus really only needs a score of 1. But he will quickly want a score of two, to protect his shield grog. Then he'll want a 3, when he's ready for an apprentice. If he has enough status to warrant two grogs, he'll want a 4. Parma thus represents the size of a magus' entourage, and therefore prestige!)

lol But the rules here are different. Parma scores across the board will be lower.

Anyway,

Ken

98

The Joust

What are the rules for this in your Tribunal?

Restricted weapons? Mounts? Techniques? Can the magus shapechage? Can the mount be a shapechanging magus? What about the various magics by which a magus cannot be forced to dismount?

What happens when all three rounds tie? If a magus turns himself and his mount immaterial?

(Deborah might be interested in this event; as I'm up to her preparations for her first Tribunal, I'd like a better understanding of the games.)

Anyway,

Ken

99

Which brings to mind the question: how many pawns of vis do we recieve each season for membership? Can we trade or provide services for vis? Can we go into debt?

100

Nevermind, locted the vis rule. 3 pawns per year. I will have to backstoy and explain it.

What do we have in terms of teachers in other subjects?