Character Development

She'll let you think that. :slight_smile:

OK, the focus is fine, but yes, he needs a story for Atlantean Magic.


I can't claim to really understand Viola, but I see no reason to let that get in the way of making sweeping statements.

I think I'm giving up on the Flambeau. I don't care for the build, can't make him work, or I'm missing something.
Does the covenant have a dock which could receive ships? Cogs of the era frequently could go up river, however my familiarity with the Don and Sea of Azov is limited. I'm considering A gently gifted Jerbiton merchant who uses weather control to defend and help move his ship, but doesn't use magic in his business dealings. His House virtue will be well traveled. He will still be a seeker, it's what keeps him on the move, well that and his desire to be a merchant.

The covenant itself is a little way (a couple of hours by boat against the stream, an hour by foot) up one of the distributaries of the Don. There's not even really a jetty there, let alone a full dock (and the river itself is too silted for major shipping, I think).

There's a fishing port at the local village at the river mouth, where the ships that bring magi dock. It's not anything especially impressive, and it's not under the magi's control, but a cog should certainly be able to dock.

In principle that would be fine. My only concern is that we already have a Gentle Gifted magus, and a second one would give us two, out of four active magi.


I've got no objections to another Gently gifted magus. Gregorius has the gentle gift so he can move relatively unnoticed in mundane society if he needs to, rather than because I specifically want to to be the mundane liaison.

So, this back and forth has brought me to an interesting place...

Here is Aeolus of Jerbiton
Characteristics: Int +2, Per +1, Pre +1, Com +3, Str -3, Sta +2, Dex -1, Qik 0
Size: 0
Age: 31 (31), Height: 5'6'', Weight: 158 lbs, Gender: Male
Decrepitude: 0
Warping Score: 0 (0)
Confidence: 1 (3)
Virtues and Flaws: The Gift, Hermetic Magus, Well-Traveled*, Linguist, Affinity with Magic Theory, Minor Magical Focus (wind), Affinity with Creo, Puissant Creo, Flawless Magic (Study Totals: Doubled for spell mastery), Subtle Magic, Puissant Bargain, Anchored to the Sea [Penalty: -3], Brutal Artist (Interactions: -3 with Jerbiton magi), Stockade Parma Magica, Favors (Ponderers of Weights and Measures), Seeker, Optimistic
Dodge: Init: +0, Attack --, Defense +0, Damage --
Fist: Init: +0, Attack -1, Defense +0, Damage -3
Kick: Init: -1, Attack -1, Defense -1, Damage +0
Soak: +2
Fatigue levels: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious
Wound Penalties: -1 (1-5), -3 (6-10), -5 (11-15), Incapacitated (16-20), Dead (21+)
Abilities: Greek 5, Latin 5, Arabic 4, Italian 4, French 2, Bargain 4+2 (high value cargo), Survival 1 (adrift), Swim 1 (diving), Awareness 2 (pirates), Leadership 1 (sailors), Sailing 2, Shipbuilding 2 (repairs), Carouse 1 (sailors), Charm 1 (merchants), Etiquette 2 (merchants), Scribe 1, Artes Liberales 3 (ceremonial magic), Philosophiae 0 (ceremonial magic) (2), Penetration 1, Magic Lore 0 (Atlantis) (2), Parma Magica 1, Finesse 1, Concentration 1, Magic Theory 5
Arts: Cr 7+3, In 4, Mu 4, Pe 5, Re 5, An 0, Aq 1, Au 5, Co 1, He 1, Ig 0, Im 1, Me 1, Te 0, Vi 5
Encumbrance: 0 (0)
Spells Known:
Circling Winds of Protection (Cr(Re)Au 20) +18, Mastery 1 (fast casting)
Wind at the Back (ReAu 5) +18, Mastery 1 (quiet casting)
Talons of the Winds (Mu(Re)Au 20) +16, Mastery 1 (quiet casting or stalwart casting if in CofM)
Scales of the Magical Weight (InVi 5) +12, Mastery 1 (quiet casting)
Sense the Nature of Vis (InVi 5) +12, Mastery 1 (quiet casting)
Quiet the Raging Winds (PeAu 20) +18, Mastery 1 (fast casting or stalwart casting if in CofM)
Whispering Winds (InAu 15) +16, Mastery 1 (quiet casting)
Break the Oncoming Wave (ReAq 10) +9, Mastery 1 (fast casting)
Maintaining the Demanding Spell (ReVi 20) +13, Mastery 1 (quiet casting or stalwart casting if in CofM)

Doing some additional reading, the Cult of Mercury is still available with the Flawless Magic virtue, even if he isn't a Flambeau, he still qualifies, so I'd like him to be involved in the Cult, if that's agreeable. I can adjust a flaw to make it more flavorful and make him fit better. I'd write his back story so that his parens (non-canon) is also from the Cult. Some of my mastery options would change as indicated above. I would (have) also push(ed) him out 10 years so I could gain Social Contacts (merchants), and plan to take 5 pawns of vis per year.

When could he arrive at Nova Castra? I'm not clear on your current timeline.

He could arrive at the end of spring.


Spring of what year? :smiley:

  1. :slight_smile:


Do you mean the end of the spring season? Everyone else has advanced their characters to the end of Winter (beginning of spring).

Stats and concept look fine. I can't think of any problem with him being a member of the Cult of Mercury (the only possible niggle I can think of is that Jerbiton is one of the more traditionally Christian houses, and the Cukt of Mercury are technically pagan. Then again, the Flambeau are the other traditionally particularly Christian house, and it's not as though they're in short supply in the Cult. HoH:S also makes it pretty explicit that a lot of Mercurians don't take the pagan trappings very seriously, and still consider themselves Christians. So all in all, a fairly non-existent niggle).

Looks like I'll be submitting the next sodales - working on the full write up, but the rough draft was okay'd by MTK.

Concept is inspired by the various references to "selling apprentices" in canon - this character will (among other past times?) be a dedicated hunter/seller of apprentice-quality Gifted children. (That may not keep him busy full-time, so I'm considering what to dovetail into that. Perhaps something ala Pralix, perhaps a procurer of other talent/covenanfolk, or other specialized Coven raw materiale, perhaps... see where he ends up, and what tools he has, and then work backwards to the backstory.)

o Tytalus/Bonisagus Parens (with an adoption/fostering/claiming or three in there - work the Hermetic/Bonisagus apprentice adoption/claiming circus to create someone who (at some level) interprets the Trianoma "builder" role as seeking/providing apprentices. (Longer term plotlines could deal w/ the question of whether he is expelled from House B, but that's a question for "down the road".) Possibly dual-House membership (willingly or no), or that could be "in his future" considering we have a Tytalus in da house.

o Arts: Early emphasis In & Re, with Co, Me & Vi, and then some misc. for utility spells - and maybe 5+ across the Arts to qualify to take an apprentice himself.

o Standard Gift - a fagin/slaver/child-snatcher (even for non-perverse reasons) should be a creepy guy.

o Magical Focus in either simple InVi or something along the lines of a Pralician - Intellego + non-Hermeticized Gift.

o Spell mix would be Intellego to find/qualify the prospective (and see below), plus Mentem to effect the snatch easily (sleep, memory wipes, etc), plus misc. utility effects to maneuver in a broad range of social environments. (He would be weak re "magical combat" - not a complete muffin, but certainly not a robust blastum type.)

o Am considering the "Personna" Virtue (HoH:Soc, Tytalus chapter) - which has some advantages over any combination of spells, and could help with a broader Agency that seeks such children (those Disguise rolls - so unpredictable).

o About 10-15 years PG, so perhaps a reputation (or two) and some acquired Virtue - pro'ly Contacts.

o Maybe a (low-level) Mystery Cult of some sort - Common knowledge type? Custom? Some are pretty handy...

o (What kind of familiar might a child-snatcher have?...)

There are 3 questions central to this concept that should be Troupe-discussed:

  1. What are your views of "legality" of this? References (that I can find) in Peripheral Code imply it's "discouraged but not illegal", and GotF describes that Coeris practices it (insert, p 102). (We could start a Forum thread if you want... never hurts, and hardly ties your/our hands - ysmv and all that.) I don't see it as a bad Rep across the whole of the Order - opinions would differ, with some just not caring, and some supporting it.

Tied to that: does the Covenant (and esp. our Guernicus) want to know about this, have it all on the table and in their face, or should it be more of a "Dark Secret" (at some level?)???

b) What Base InVi to Detect The Gift? (5? 10? I can see arguments for both) (Is there a canonical spell for it somewhere? Or was that for ArM4?)

iii) Is it possible to use InCo & InMe to determine "Characteristics"? Specifically Intelligence (for this character), but others as well. Corpus has "Base 5: Sense a specific piece of info about a body", so Mentem should have something parallel. I could see bumping that up via Central Rule for this specific purpose.

At one level, it could be called "metagaming" - but everything in AM is quantified in numbers - wounds, magnitudes, durations, rounds - and Player Characters respond to these as such. "Characteristics" should be equally quantifiable - magic that tells whether a prospective Apprentice is Int -2 or Int +5 is pretty central, and certainly within Hermetic bounds at face value.

If the InCo were Base 10 (Base 5 for "specific piece of info" plus 1 mag "just because"), then making InMe one magnitude higher (Mentem Guidelines seem tougher than Corpus, and that makes some sense) would effectively be InMe Base 15. I'd think that the spell that determines this "specific piece" would have to be specified re which Physical/Mental Characteristic is analyzed (or an additional magnitude for more information, and get all 4 of whichever, physical or mental Characteristics).

Quantify the Body
InCo 20
Determine all 4 Physical Characteristics - Strength, Stamina, Dexterity & Quickness.
(Base 5, +1 Touch, +1 mag complexity (for all 4), +1 Central Rule bump)

Quantify the Mind
InMe 25
Determine all 4 Mental Characteristics - Intelligence, Perception, Communication & Presence.
(Base 10, +1 Touch, +1 mag complexity (for all 4), +1 Central Rule bump)

Then there are questions that apply to specific Characters - the Guernicus and the current Tytalus - but I'll just say I recognize there may be some, and let you ask/respond as you prefer.

This is a very interesting concept, and such a character makes a lot of sense in canonical Theban Tribunal, with some small changes if we are in a canonical Theban Tribunal. If so, potential apprentices are presented at Tribunal, and then are given out to worthy masters. Your character could have found some interest in candidates not typically found in the usual means, and probably has garnered several tokens by finding apprentices over the years and presenting them.

I'm not sure what legality you're asking about. There are mundane laws that need to be considered, sure. In light of that insert, I'm sure those slaves are purchased, probably at a premium by Coeris, over other comparable slaves. It's silver, who cares. The real legalities come when you try and entice a Gifted child away from his parents. Is this bringing danger to the Order through his actions? I seem to recall mention of magi kidnapping their apprentices, but I would think that's a rare apprentice and/or a powerless and penniless family that can't do anything about it.

I'm skipping the a) question, as that is addressed more towards a specific player.

Here's one that has it as level 15
I have a bit of a problem with that, as Base 10 is detecting Magic, either Weak and recent or powerful. Is the Gift magical? I tend to think it is not. I think you could perhaps detect that such a child worked magic recently, and that's about it. Thinking about it another way, if there were a simple spell to detect the Gift, House Jerbiton would've long ago invented it, if only to find those Gently Gifted souls who never get discovered because they blend into society and don't get noticed.

This goes hand in hand with the interview period describedin The Sundered Eagle, but to a magical degree. Unfortunately there is no guideline that currently exists. Perhaps no one has thought of it it, and it is some original research your character needs to accomplish? A Trianomae conducting original research would be a hoot, scandalous and something to be expected of one with a Tytali heritage. I can see the comment now, "Well why can't I conduct research?!"

Sure, but I think you have an excellent in character reason for wanting to know the capability of the apprentices you present to the Tribunal AND you can use that as an edge and turn the apprentice process on its head by controlling the flow of information about the apprentices you have discovered to the individuals you wish.

Cool - but I'm not familiar w/ canon Thebes material. I had envisioned a pan-Order sort of enterprise (and for profit as much as to serve The Order), but if a local tradition exists, so much the better. "tokens"?

Yes, I was talking re The Code (a mage who can't evade mundane laws - pffft!). And there are many ways to skin this particular cat, and leave the family not knowing what to do, or even unaware there is anything to do. (ie, fake a death, change memories, etc etc.)

Since it's "peripheral code" land, it invites Troupe/SG interpretation. It clearly(?) happens on an individual basis occasionally, but for one mage to make it a practice rather than to perform it once for personal reasons is a different matter.

(It may be that he will (eventually) bring about a Tribunal Case and new precedent established one way or the other, but for now we need to figure out where the "starting point" is in the eyes of the Code (which is "theory") and The Order (which is "practice").

So everyone can opine, here are the references that I have.

  1. Guardians of the Forest (insert p 102)
    [style=Times New Roman]
    [size=120]The Slave Trade[/size]

[size=120]Prague is home to a large slave market. The word β€œslave” derives from β€œslav”... The Church forbids making Christians into slaves. The trade in slaves is controlled by the (corrupt) Knights of the Sword, and is a lucrative source of income... They transport the slaves to Prague and sell them to Jewish merchants, who then transport them to Muslim lands and sell them again...

... a trusted companion of Roznov covenant (see below) uses his Magic Sensitivity to spot and filter out any Gifted children among the slaves. They then find themselves delivered to Coeris, the domus magna of House Tremere in the Transylvanian Tribunal.[/size][/style]

  1. Then, from the (4th ed) Timeline posted * on these boards...
    (* by Erik Tyrrell : )

1188 1327 Provencal: Magus Teslil of Jerbiton finds a Gifted girl and, already having an apprentice of his own, sells her to Magus Gentric of Jerbiton. [WGRE] See 1331 for additional developments.
1192 1331 Provencal: Magus Gentric dies. His property is disposed of in the manner of his covenant, and his apprentice taken by Magus Alarmon of Tytalus. [WGRE] See the Provencal Tribunal of 1333 for additional developments.
1194 1333 Provencal Tribunal of 1333: Magus Teslil claims that the former apprentice of Magus Gentric, who died 1331, should be granted him, as Gentric had been of his House and he had found the girl to begin with. The Tribunal rules that Teslil, having sold the girl, had given up all claim. [WGRE]
Regarding Magus Teslil, the Tribunal noted its disapproval of selling apprentices, but did not forbid it.

(WGRE = Wizard's Grimoire, Revised Edition)
And that's about it.

Note that The Order does not see taking apprentices "as slaves", and so to be "endangering The Order" that way - if it did, there would be chaos in the Tribunals. The "Slave" info is included to show that Coeris has an active search machine in place full time, not because a particular mage is searching for an apprentice of their own. (Whether or not this is "common knowledge" in The Order may be a different matter.)

Yes and no - I believe all Players should help write - and plan - the Story. Do you, as a Player, think it would make a better story to have this mage try to keep his activities under the table and discrete from his sodales, or to have everything out in the open? If your character wouldn't care either way (and this may depend in part on what we decide on the peripheral code), then that's that, but otherwise...

Which simply uses InVi Base 10 - very straightforward, yep.

Interesting. But if not "magic", then what is it? Mentem? Corpus? None of the above - but then, again, what? Something outside and beyond the 10 Forms?!

To me, The Gift is a bit like vis - it's magic, in its purest, unfettered, rawest form. The negative social aspect is described as "creepiness caused by an unconscious awareness of magic" - or words to that effect. The InVi Guidelines imply that it is magic, or certainly could be, unless "having ones Arts opened" is somehow a change in the magic within a Gifted child that changes it from outside of InVi to within the Guidelines.

Sometimes the Gift is "latent" - but that only means it hasn't done anything overt. Often, it's described as creating "unintentional" magical effects, sometimes none at all. It's certainly variable, that's clear - but at the same time "it" is The Gift, and so has something consistent. (I believe that it's not impossible that The Gift appears later in some children, so a child with no (discernible?) Gift today may have one tomorrow, triggered by some immeasurable variable. Altho', once manifest, it's there for life.)

Iirc, non-Hermetic spellcasters can be detected using those same Guidelines - so, again, we're back to Base 10. (Altho' The Central Rule could certainly be applied "just because".)

Not every spell that has been invented, or even that "is common", is listed in the books. There are many details that the editors/writers simply recognize as more approp to "ysmv", and so do not want to make canon one way or the other. Their omission, however, is not in turn a canon statement that they do not exist.

Well, as I pointed out, the InCo "specific piece of information" seems to cover it, and InMe has clear parallels to InCo, even if not all are listed.

If, otoh, this requires individual research... can do. (Not sure it would be "scandalous", but either way.)

From what I can see, there's a fairly consistent viewpoint in the Order that apprentices are basically property (granted, a certain amount of that perception does come from the case rulings in the 4th edition Wizard's gGrimoire, but even in 5th edition there are statements like ""Strictly speaking, magi are allowed to obtain apprentices in whichever manner they wish", "the apprentice belongs to the master", "Masters who abuse their apprentices are not well regarded, but it is not against the Code to do so" and "A magus may choose to pass an apprentice on to a second magus, provided that both magi agree to the transfer. The apprentice's consent is not required. (All from pg 106 of the main book).

Valuable property, mind.

(On a side note, according to C&G, the treatment of Guild apprentices doesn't seem to be all that different. Albeit usually involving less potential for coercion into the position in the first place - although it's not unknown for parents to sell their son as an apprentice to repay a debt.)

I'd think that the Order's attitude would depend a bit on how apprentices are acquired. If you're doing it by using your Bonisagus perogative to steal other magi's apprentices, and then selling them on/back, you're likely to find yourself on the receiving end of a Wizard's War before too long. Similarly, you need to make sure you're not endangering your sodales by stirring up the wrath of the locals. Avoiding outcomes like that, though, and you could well be seen to be providing a public service. I mean, it's for the apprentices own good in the long run, right? Being a magus has to be better than whatever they would have been otherwise. And going out into the world to find apprentices is such a hassle.

Even with the Gift it can't be that unusual for the parents to be relieved to have someone take weird little Jimmy off their hands, especially for a sum of money. Basically, I think he's unlikely to be doing things all that much worse than a lot of magi would be doing to get their own apprentices (unless he's doing anything that's particularly dreadful, at least). In more bulk, and near other people's home territory, admittedly.

The canonical Theban system is quite different from the rest of the Order. Rather than each magus finding their own apprentices, potential apprentices are collected during each inter-Tribunal period, and given preliminary non-magical training until the tribunal. Prior to the tribunal, there's an opportunity for all interested magi to meet with each potential apprentice, and find one (or more) they think would be a suitable student. They then given them a token (or more). Once the tribunal starts, the apprentice decides which of the magi who have given them a token they want to study under. Typically it's the one that's given them the most tokens, as they can then keep them for after they've gauntletted, but it doesn't have to be. There are various tweaks to the system to avoid infringing the rights of Bonisagus, since the Oath trumps the Theban peripheral code.

(Tokens are essentially an extra form of currency in the tribunal. They can be exchanged between magi (subject to a Redcap witnessing), or awarded by the tribunal for acts of meritorious service (such as donating an apprentice to the apprentice presentation). They can also be used to cancel out shards, which are given as a mark of censorship (and have various negative potential, such as potentially being kicked out of the tribunal). Refusing to surrender an apprentice to the tribunal would land you two shards. Deals may therefore occur along the lines of "I'll spend a season creating a longevity ritual for you if you provide the vis and neutralise one of my shards".)

I think it's reasonable for magic to be able to give you an idea of how intelligent someone is, albeit IC you wouldn't get an answer that was "yes, he's Int +2 and Comm -4". You can probably also hazard a reasonable guess with sufficient Folk Ken.

I'm sure I've seen a spell to detect the gift in canon somewhere, but I can't remember where.

What about a Cuckoo? In many ways, it's the exact opposite of what you're doing, but it seems somehow appropriate.

Oh, no, no - he'd sell them a different apprentice, to replace the one he claimed for himself. Nothing if not considerate. 0:)

And not for his own use, but for his own gain - that's the sticking point.

Very interesting!

I was considering setting up a "training program", to prep them for the larger market. (The obvious problem is that they could be "claimed" by any other, if/since he isn't "claiming" them himself. But I'd think this would have been a problem with the canon example of "selling" the apprentice - one mage's property vs. another's would-be claimed apprentice. I doubt if simply "claiming" could steal what is claimed as property, but I also want to say that I remember provisions against "hoarding" Gifted children as non-apprentice lab assistants (Anyone else remember such - know where that citation might be found?). Wonder where this would fall in that whole spectrum...)

(What happens to the "left over" apprentices, the ones that don't get picked?)

I would think there could, also, be complications (or loopholes?) if the apprentices came from or were moved out of Tribunal - hrmmm... lots to think about...

Ya know, I was thinking the same thing (both pro and con)! I think that may be a lock - thanks!

In Hermetic law everyone who's part of a covenant and not a magus is property. The real limit on that is the interference with mundanes clause.

I remember when I was in law school, and doing research on a case, somehow I stumbled on a very old British case about a girl who'd been apprenticed at the age of 13 to a musician, who proceeded not to teach her to play music. The ruling of the court was that the apprenticeship contract was void because he'd never taught her music--not because he molested her or anything like that (that, apparently, would have been OK had he taught her music). And that case was from the 18th century or so, by which point mores were considerably more advanced than in the Middle Ages.

Let me preface what I'm about to say by admitting that, although I own it, I have not in fact had time to read The Sundered Eagle. That being said, I would submit that whoever came up with the token thing was likely on crack, or, at least, entirely ignored of politics and economics: vis may well be plentiful in Thebes, but (apart from the fact that the amount of vis required to make the stuff worthless would have to be unimaginable) Theban magi interact with the rest of the Order, and that means that vis is valuable as something to trade to magi in other tribunals. Saying Theban magi don't value vis and would rather trade tokens is like saying that the Saudis don't value oil. I could certainly see tokens trading alongside vis, though since they're essentially what economists call a "fiat currency", people would really have to believe in them to make the whole thing work; mind you, if they can be redeemed for something by the Tribunal itself, the system might work, because they wouldn't really be a fiat currency.

As for the apprentices...I find that system fascinating. I can however see that it might impair the type of apprentice-seeking stories that a lot of people enjoy playing. I'm therefore going to ask the rest of the troupe how much of the Theban canon we should incorporate into this saga.


Found the canonical Gift detection spell.

"The Numbness of the Gift", page 6 of Hedge Magic. Uses the base 10 guideline for detecting the traces of powerful magic.

But do the Saudis value water, food and arable land, too? The idea behind tokens and shards is to encourage good social behavior amongst the magi of the Tribunal. Since vis is so plentiful it is unlikely to be a motivating factor in encouraging good behavior. Vis isn't worthless, but they consider it more like food and water, something essential to life that everyone must have. And it is plentiful enough in the Tribunal that there's little reason to fight over it.
One gains tokens for performing services that benefit the community of magi. That's a very Ancient Greek kind of thing to do. Reading Page 28 of The Sundered Eagle explains how tokens and shards work.

I don't see it as being an impairment at all. Go out, find a gifted child. Teach him a bit (or a lot, but not opening the Arts) and turn him over to the Tribunal and compete for him as the apprentice. In the Theban Tribunal, apprentices choose their masters, see page 32 and 33.

Maybe you don't keep the apprentice you found, but you find a better one, more suited to your gifts and arts at the interview? Maybe this character becomes adept at matching the right apprentice to the right master? I think this opens up many more stories for finding apprentices, without the need to actually take on an apprentice!