OK, so what was your final version?
Scott
There was two side questions raised about the effect, which I'd like you to clarify as being OK before finalizing. I'm planning on re-working the spell to suit the judgements of this troupe, and if that means i have "left over" magnitudes then maybe making the effect quicker or some such.
(a) is it outside the saga setting to allow magic to increase the size of a creature by such a large proportion? i.e. would a size 11 Lion be out of the saga style. I disagreed with it being raised as not possible with the spell mechanics, but can't dispute that a story guide might see the spell as being too jarring in a low fantasy setting.
e.g. A moderate dragon is size 7, a bluewhale is up to around 150 tons which is size +10, and a creature of +13 is around 1500 tons.
Now sizes larger than around size 7-8 are larger than I intended anyway, as I wanted the creature to be scary and impressive, but not totally insane.
(b) how is the cost for transformation magic "paid for" from the original to the destination.
I'm happy that the answer to (b) is to require the magic to pay for the final form, based from the starting material size and form. It seems fair, and in line with the other Muto guidelines for other forms.
What do you think?
There was two side questions raised about the effect, which I'd like you to clarify as being OK before finalizing. I'm planning on re-working the spell to suit the judgements of this troupe, and if that means i have "left over" magnitudes then maybe making the effect quicker or some such.
(a) is it outside the saga setting to allow magic to increase the size of a creature by such a large proportion? i.e. would a size 11 Lion be out of the saga style. I disagreed with it being raised as not possible with the spell mechanics, but can't dispute that a story guide might see the spell as being too jarring in a low fantasy setting.
e.g. A moderate dragon is size 7, a bluewhale is up to around 150 tons which is size +10, and a creature of +13 is around 1500 tons.
Now sizes larger than around size 7-8 are larger than I intended anyway, as I wanted the creature to be scary and impressive, but not totally insane.
[/quote]
You can make a creature that large if you want, but, unless you have no witnesses, doing something like that is likely to have some consequences.
I"m not clear what the consensus of the forum was on this question. What did you get out of it?
Scott
The final wrangling came down to saga choice on impact, so the version I'll put forward is:
This version applies limits to the upward and downward size change consistent with the max size change upwards (+10 size ranks), and also keeps to the upper limit of the size 11 which came out of the discussion in the forums. This is a small change from the size +13 in the original, but really is here nor there. Desired flavour is the same.
Is this ok for you, and the setting?
I think so. Just to make sure I understand it, you're paying magnitudes both for target size and for the size the target becomes, right?
Scott
Yep. Base is up to Size 1. So I added an extra mag to affect creatures up to Size 4. Then added additional x3 mags for the final target size from base +2 up to size 11.
- cheers IBT
Right. OK, sounds fine. Go with it.
Scott
Gah. Post your completed character sheet in the appropriate thread, IBT, so I can reference it faster.
Done.
The concept I am toying with is a magus whose gift manifested later than most, and is strongly linked to the fall of Constantinople.
I think of him as a student at a university in Constantinople, having just achieved the rank of Magister in Artibus. He is actually giving his first lecture as the crusaders begin their sack of the city in 1204. At this point his gift manifests with a vengeance (blatant gift), and with some sort of spectacular magical effect. In the audience was a senior Jerbiton magus who recognizes what is happening, spirits my character away, and takes him as an apprentice. Now, after the apprenticeship, my magus travels to Nova Castra. It is relatively isolated, so he hopes his blatant gift will be less harmful, but it is also proximate to the city that so changed him.
From what I can glean, the saga has just begun the year 1228. Presuming he was 21 at the start of his apprenticeship in 1204, he would have 8 years post gauntlet.
Welcome to the forum!
Sounds good, with a little bit of tweaking as to exact details (even the Jerbiton were trying to defend the city, albeit mostly by playing with both sides minds by the point the Crusaders were outside the walls, rather than being in the middle of a lecture, and similarly the lecture would probably have been cancelled). I don't know if you have The Sundered Eagle for details of the canonical magi in Constantinople at the time? If you want, I can dig some details out of there, although there's also always scope for a few extra undeveloped magi in the city.
Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I don't have Sundered Eagle. I would be curious if there were any appropriate magi that might be my parens. The backstory I'm working on has the two of them go to Valnastium, where my magus meets Carmine, a Flambeau and wife of Andru the Jerbiton primus. Due to the destructive circumstances under which his gift emerged, I'm going to say he has a talent for Perdo magic. Carmine ends up facilitating a fosterage at a Flambeau covenant, perhaps even Val Negra, where my magus has an opportunity to study the school of Apromor.
It's only a small point for his backstory, but there's a good chance your magus might have met Viola, who was in the Tribunal while he was an apprentice.
Scott
The Iberian tribunal? That's interesting. Perhaps they struck up occasional correspondence and ultimately this is how I found out about Nova Castra.
According to TSE, prior to the Fall of Constantinople, there were three covenants there: Themakopolis, Moero's Garden and Xylintes.
Themakopolis was a Jerbiton house covenant of 5 magi, pledged to the protection of the city.They tried to prevent the fall of the city with Mentem magics used on both sides of the conflict, but failed to take into proper account the involvement of the infernal, and were still assuring the tribunal that everything was going to be fine and they'd sort it even as the Latins started assembling under Constantinople's walls. At that point they realised their attempts weren't working, and moved to more direct defensive methods. Unfortunately their spells scared the Constantinople forces away from the walls, more frightened of the wizards than the crusaders. All but the leader of the covenant, Archmage Mathieus, died in the ensuing assault, and the covenant now no longer exists.
There's not much detailing of the individual magi given; Mathieus is the only one who is even named. He ended up fleeing to Paris, where he founded Eboris. He now often acts as the host for the initial stages of the Intinerium (the tour of Europe Jerbiton apprentices near gauntlet often participate in).
Moero's Garden was another Jerbiton house covenant dedicated to finding art and literature of the early Byzantine period. Its magi stayed out of imperial politics, and instead focussed on beautifying the covenant and visiting historic sites with architectural and artistic significance. There was a general attitude that the magi were aristrocrats, and the idea of having anything to do with working for a living was fairly abhorrent. Whilst the covenant avoided destruction in the fall of the city, they were afraid for their precious works of art, and later fled with them to a former summer home/chapter house in Nicea. This is small, cramped, and in a divine aura, and most of the magi don't want to think about the fact that money has become tight.
There are 8 magi in the covenant; 7 Jerbiton and 1 Tytalus with the Gentle Gift.
Ionnia of Jerbiton was the original founder of the covenant. She has a superb collection of ancient poetry, which she has gathered partially by using her skills in Rego Mentem to summon and interrogate ghosts. She's also extremely frail (Difficult Longevity Ritual), and likely not long for this world.
Syagrucis of Jerbiton is a hermaphrodite, which his sodales don't mind too much, with a tendency to mention it excessively, which they do. The covenant lost a number of items of art when they fled the covenant, and he makes regular trips back to the city to try to find them.
Xylinites was another Jerbiton house covenant, this time inside a monastery attached to a state supported orphanage. The magi acted as tutors to the children, picking up Gifted children to turn into apprentices and using other graduates to build strong links in the imperial palace - a substantial number of the children became eunuchs either in the civil service or the choirs. 3 of the magi were killed in the sack of the city, and the remaining Jerbiton fled, leaving only one (blatently gifted) Criamon magus, Artoud. Artoud has turned the covenant into a Criamon Clutch dedicated to the Path of the Body.
There isn't any information on specific Jerbiton magi, although there's a bit on the Criamon who live there now.
The information above is fairly heavily summarised.There are very few Jerbiton who stayed in Constantinople, but quite a lot who used to live there and then fled during/following the sack. Xylinites, with its school, has some of the academic connotations you were looking for (I don't think Constantinople actually had any universities as such - they were more of a western phenomenom, although "Palace Schools" existed and played a loosely similar role, although without Magisters in Artibus with that name). The eunuch theme may be a downside there, although by no means all of the students got castrated (and indeed, it was by no means unheard of for ambitious youths to volunteer for the procedure).
Salutor, thank you so much for that info, it really helps contextualize things for me. I think you're right in that Xylinites is the most appropriate covenant for my initial involvement, as it certainly makes sense as regards to scholarship. I think that my magus will actually have been a western scholar from the University of Paris or Oxford that was studying in Constantinople at the time of the sacking, and likely came into contact with and befriended other Jerbiton magi during this time, although he was unaware of their gifts. During the attack he would have sought out these friends and his gift manifested destructively when they were ambushed by knights, likely in the form of a particularly brutal Perdo Corpus effect. As they made their escape, one of the Jerbiton would have brought him to Valnastium to begin his apprenticeship. Before leaving, he would have come into contact with Artoud, and the two would have stayed in touch over the years, corresponding about, among other things, dealing with the Blatant gift.
Character sheet, almost finished
Longinus Jerbitonis
Characteristics
Int +3, Per +2, Pre +1, Com +2, Str -2, Sta +2, Dex -2, Qik -2
Virtues
Hermetic Magus
The Gift
Educated (Jerbiton)
Magister in Artibus
Unaging
Venus' Blessing
Mythic Blood of Apromor (Includes Minor Magical Focus: Dispelling and 'Smell the Witch': as 'Sense the Lingering Magic' InVi 30)
Puissant Perdo
Life Boost
Flaws
Blatant Gift
Enemies (Crusaders in Constantinople)
Deficient Technique (Creo)
Nocturnal
Childhood 0-5 (45 exp)
French 5
Charm 2 (15)
Folk Ken 2 (15)
Guile 2 (15)
Later Life 6-25 (300 exp +50 educated + 240 Magister in Artibus)
Latin 5 (75)
Artes Liberales 5 (75)
Philosophae 4 (50)
Teaching 4 (50)
Theology 4 (50)
Medicine (Anatomy) 4 (50)
Athletics 2 (15)
Awareness 3 (30)
Bargain 2 (15)
Brawl 2 (15)
Carouse 2 (15)
Concentration 4 (50)
Profession (Scribe) 3 (30)
Etiquette 2 (15)
Intrigue 2 (15)
University Lore 2 (15)
Civil and Canon Law 2 (15)
Constantinople Lore 1 (5)
Paris Lore 1 (5)
Apprenticeship 26-40 (240)
Code of Hermes 1 (5)
Finesse 1 (5)
Magic Theory (Perdo) 3 (30)
Parma Magica 1 (5)
Penetration 2 (15)
Arts (180 exp left)
Intellego 5 (15)
Perdo 10 +3 (55)
Corpus 10 (55)
Vim 10 (55)
Spells
Physician's Eye InCo 5
The Wound that Weeps PeCo 15
Grip of the Choking Hand PeCo 25
Veil of Invisibility PeIm 20
Inhale the Flavor of Magic InVi 25
Unravelling the Fabric of Animal PeVi 15
Unravelling the Fabric of Aquam PeVi 15
Post Apprenticeship 41-48
Age 41:
Spring: Study Lab Texts for Unravelling the Fabric of Auram PeVi 15 and Corpus PeVi 15
Summer: Study Lab Texts for Unravelling the Fabric of Herbam PeVi 15 and Ignem PeVi 15
Autumn: Study Lab Texts for Unravelling the Fabric of Imaginem PeVi 15 and Mentem PeVi 15
Winter: Study Lab Texts for Unravelling the Fabric of Terram PeVi 15 and Vim PeVi 15
Correspondence: 4 Perdo (59)
Age 42:
Spring: Study Lab Text for Incantation of the Milky Eyes PeCo 30
Summer: Study Lab Text for Twist of the Tongue PeCo 30
Autumn: Study Perdo Tractatus (69 -> 11)
Winter: Study Perdo Tractatus (79 -> 12)
Correspondence: 4 Corpus (59)
Age 43:
Spring: Study Corpus Tractatus (69 -> 11)
Summer: Study Corpus Tractatus (79 -> 12) (PeCo Lab total: 36)
Autumn: Study Magic Theory Summae (40)
Winter: Study Magic Theory Summae (50 -> 4) (PeCo Lab total: 37)
Correspondence: Corpus 2 (81), Magic Theory 1 (51), Creo 1 (1 -> 1)
Age 44:
Spring: Study Magic Theory Tractatus (61)
Summer: Study Magic Theory Tractatus (71)
Autumn: Study Parma Magica Summae (19 -> 2)
Winter: Study Parma Magica Summae (33 -> 3)
Correspondence: Magic Theory 4 (75 -> 5) (PeCo Lab Total: 38)
Age 45:
Spring: Study Creo Summae (15 -> 5)
Summer: Study Animal Summae (14 -> 4)
Autumn: Study Herban Summae (14 -> 4)
Winter: Story: Hunting down agents of Crusaders in Italy: 10 exp -> 89
Correspondence: 4 Perdo (93 -> 13) (PeCo Lab Total: 39)
Age 46:
Spring: Study Aquam Summae (14 -> 4)
Summer: Study Auram Summae (14 -> 4)
Autumn: Study Ignem Summae (14 -> 4)
Winter: Study Terram Summae (14 -> 4)
Correspondence: Aquam 1 (5 -> 15), Aurum 1 (5 -> 15), Ignem 1 (5 -> 15), Terram 1 (5 -> 15),
Age 47:
Spring: Lab Work for Longevity Ritual
Summer: Study Imaginem Summae (14 -> 4)
Autumn: Study Perdo Tractatus (103)
Winter: Study Mentem Summae (14 -> 4)
Correspondence: Perdo 2 (105 -> 14) PeCo Lab Total 40, Animal 1 (15 -> 5), Herbam 1 (15 -> 5)
Age 48:
Spring: Study Corpus Tractatus (91 -> 13) PeCo Lab Total 41
Summer: Study Clenching Grasp of the Crushed Heart PeCo 40
Autumn: Study Muto Summae (14 -> 4)
Winter: Study Rego Summae (14 -> 4)
Correspondence: Imaginem 1 (15 -> 5), Mentem 1 (15 -> 5), Muto 1 (14 -> 5), Rego (15 -> 5)
Spell I'm developing, any comments?
Inhale the Flavor of Magic InVi 25
R: Per, D: Mom, T: Smell
With a sniff, the magus can determine the Form, Technique and Magnitude of any spell he knows to be active. A precise follow-up to 'Smell the Witch'.
(Base 5, +2 Smell, +2 Technique and Form)
Age 48:
Abilities:
French (Educated) 5
Charm (Wit) 2 (15)
Folk Ken (Women) 2 (15)
Guile (Elaborate Lies) 2 (15)
Latin (Academic) 5 (75)
Artes Liberales (Rhetoric) 5 (75)
Philosophae (Moral Philosophy) 4 (50)
Teaching (Magic Theory) 4 (50)
Theology (History) 4 (50)
Medicine (Anatomy) 4 (50)
Athletics (Running) 2 (15)
Awareness (Alertness) 3 (30)
Bargain (Books) 2 (15)
Brawl (Dodge) 2 (15)
Carouse (Games of Chance) 2 (15)
Concentration (Lab Work) 4 (50)
Profession; Scribe 3 (30)
Etiquette (Academia) 2 (15)
Intrigue 2 (15)
University Lore (Politics) 2 (15)
Civil and Canon Law 2 (15)
Constantinople Lore (Scholarly Communities) 1 (5)
Paris Lore 1 (5)
Code of Hermes (History) 1 (5)
Finesse (Perdo) 1 (5)
Magic Theory (Perdo) 3 (30)
Parma Magica (Perdo) 3 (30)
Penetration (Perdo) 2 (15)
Arts:
Creo 5 (15)
Intellego 5 (15)
Muto 5 (15)
Perdo 14 +3 (105)
Rego 5 (15)
Animal 5 (15)
Aquam 5 (15)
Auram 5 (15)
Corpus 13 (91)
Herbam 5 (15)
Imaginem 5 (15)
Mentem 5 (15)
Terram 5 (15)
Vim 10 (55)
Spells:
Physician's Eye InCo 5
The Wound that Weeps PeCo 15
Grip of the Choking Hand PeCo 25
Incantation of the Milky Eyes PeCo 30
Twist of the Tongue PeCo 30
Clenching Grasp of the Crushed Heart PeCo 40
Veil of Invisibility PeIm 20
Inhale the Flavor of Magic InVi 25
Unravelling the Fabric of Animal PeVi 15
Unravelling the Fabric of Aquam PeVi 15
Unravelling the Fabric of Auram PeVi 15
Unravelling the Fabric of Corpus PeVi 15
Unravelling the Fabric of Herbam PeVi 15
Unravelling the Fabric of Ignem PeVi 15
Unravelling the Fabric of Imaginem PeVi 15
Unravelling the Fabric of Mentem PeVi 15
Unravelling the Fabric of Terram PeVi 15
Unravelling the Fabric of Vim PeVi 15
Welcome aboard!
No, the Theban Tribunal. However...after that, she was at a Tribunal on the border of the Iberian Tribunal. 
Scott
Figures for the character look fine. A Perdo Jerbiton with the blatent gift is a bit odd, but I assume that oddness is a significant part of the concept.
What's the story with the Crusaders as Enemies? Are they people who are after him, or is he after them? (The first is the way the flaw traditionally works, but at the moment the impression I get is more the latter - then again, if he's spent several of his seasons in the past going after them, it may be time they try to return the favour...)
(As an extremely minor nitpick, I think it should be Jerbitonis (of Jerbiton) rather than Ex Jerbiton - the Ex only actually applies to Ex Misc).
A lot of the abilities still need specialities, but I assume you're planning to add those later.