I've realised I need to swap out Chryse's Protection from Diseases or it'll be another 20 / 40 onto Viola's required lab total to open the Arts. It's not a significant part of the character (it was more placeholder to be replaced by something else as she grows older), so shouldn't be a huge problem, but I do need to work out what to replace it with.
I didn't realize that was even supernatural.
Scott
OK...so it's been like years since I last looked at the lab rules, which oughta make this fun.
So, we're starting off with a Size +1 lab; adding the Free Supernatural Virtue Regio will take that to +4. Viola's MT is 8, which gives a potential Refinement score of 5, for a maximum net Virtue/Flaw balance of 9, which is 8 points more than we've got right now; actually, 10 points (9 extra) isn't that far out of reach, since she could earn the additional 13 XP required to bring up MT up to 9 relatively quickly.
Right now, we've got one Major Virtue, Greater Feature (Running Water), one Minor Virtue, Lesser Feature (Petrified Men), and one Major Flaw, Greater Focus (Running Water). Everything else is Free (including a Familiar and a Servant--I haven't added any Assistant stats yet for Chryse), plus there's a Lab Enchantment (a stove provided the equivalent of Magical Heating).
First, the things we've already got:
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Chryse provides the Free Outfittings Virtue Assistant--as I said above, that's simply a bookkeeping step I haven't gotten around to yet.
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I think I should have included the Free Structure Virtue Dedicated Building from the beginning. Whoops. That does bump up the Upkeep, which is a very real issue. Or maybe we are in fact using the mundane level for something? It started out as a ruined temple, but perhaps it's been renovated/rebuilt?
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Viola has long been planning on adding a Lab Enchantment that provides Magical Lighting--that would also reduce Upkeep by 1, under our house rules. As an interesting sidenote, apparently we were involved in a lengthy forum discussion about this Virtue 7 years ago, and I had just about forgotten it: Magical Lighting in Labs. Reading that discussion did however remind me to check the house rules, which explained why I had a -1 Upkeep listed for Magical Heating.
Now for the new or changed stuff:
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I've got Regio listed among the Free Virtues, but only its negative effect (+1 Warping), and extending the lab to the higher level will require installation, though that's trivial for a Free Virtue.
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Similarly, the combination of Greater Feature and Greater Focus has up until now provided a total Specializations bonus of +3, vs. the +7 it normally would, due to the reduced water flow. Does the resolution of the story fix that immediately, or do I need to re-install the Virtue? Or maybe it's just a matter of removing the Flaw, which can be done simultaneously with two seasons of Refinement--given that the +3 bonus that exists already is identical to that normally provided by Greater Feature, that's likely what I originally had in mind, but removing the Focus may not in itself fix the Feature. At any rate, removing that Flaw would increase the required points by 3.
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Natural Environment is a Major Structure Virtue; a +3 to He is probably the most logical bonus, given the location and the maga. That's 3 points.
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The Vis Source is a Minor Supernatural Virtue--but I don't think it's required to install it, and I don't see where Viola has a need for the +2 Cr specialization. It would be 1 point if she did install it.
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Site of Legend is a Free Supernatural Virtue, so that's easy to incorporate, but, as I said in the other thread, I'm not sure what Specializations it would bring: Creo? Women? Children? Faeries? I would probably rule out Aquam or Herbam, which are due to the Natural Environment itself, not the legend. Can you think of any appropriate Art Specializations? It's hard to see her not going with Muto and Herbam, but that leaves two Art specializations (one of which can be a Technique) open. She probably favors Imaginem (which would be provided in small measure by a Lab Enchantment that granted Magical Lighting), but I'm open to suggestions.
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Greater Guardian is a Major Supernatural Virtue, with probably the same specialization options as Site of Legend. None of those bonuses reflect Viola's current magical interests, though the possibility of doubling up on them might offer an intriguing opportunity to refocus. One catch is that she's pretty set on the two activity Specializations she's already got, Items and Teaching. At any rate, Greater Guardian is 3 points.
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The potentially changed nature of the handmaidens/crones might make them suitable as a Greater Horde, which is a Major Supernatural Virtue, or a Lesser Horde, for a Minor Supernatural Virtue, depending on their level of intelligence. The default Rego specialization is useful, though their present existence in a state of constant flux also suggest Muto, of which the lab is sadly short. However, that's another 3 or 1 point, and another +1 to Upkeep.
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As Inhabitants, a Free Supernatural Flaw, the handmaidens/crones would be easier to incorporate, and would still provide a Muto or other bonus.
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The group might also provide Faerie Ingredients, a Free Supernatural Virtue, which would reduce Upkeep and potentially provide a Muto bonus; the upper regio level might also be a source, with a Muto or Herbam bonus. However, Warping is starting to be an issue here.
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I'm thinking Thoroughfare (Free Supernatural Flaw) is unlikely, given the level of access Gregorius would be willing to stomach, but we'll keep it in mind: the hit to Safety is tolerable, and it might help balance a Free Virtue.
To sum up:
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Adding Natural Environment, Greater Guardian, and Greater Horde and ditching Greater Focus would add up to 12 extra points, and only 8 or 9 are currently within reach. Even with a Lesser Horde, it's still 10 extra points, but using Inhabitants would drop it to 9.
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As for extra Flaws to free up points, it would be impossible to add Structure Flaws at this point, and I don't see any Minor or Major Outfittings or Supernatural Flaws that could easily be applied.
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Upkeep is more of an issue than I thought, due to Dedicated Building.
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A lot of the Virtues and Flaws mentioned above would increase Warping, and she'd rather not have it over 3, but I'm not sure that's avoidable at this point.
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While she's pretty happy with the Items, Teaching, and Herbam specializations that are already present or look like obvious additions, the lack of obvious Muto, Rego, and Imaginem bonuses over +1 or +2 is a concern.
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What she chooses to do here is going to hinge to a great extent on what bonuses are available for each of the possible Virtues.
I wouldn't require "Dedicated Building" unless you're actually trying to use the mundane temple level for something - I don't think the interior of regios necessarily have the same implications as standalone buildings.
You can get the boost in effectiveness of the Greater Feature without spending further time on it. Removing the Focus would require time, but you could combine it with time spent improving the refinement.
I won't require Site of legend, but if you want it I'd probably stick to an Arts specialisation (there is some precedent for non Art/Activity specialisations to exist, as Hermetic Projects has Ships, but I don't think it's actually in line with the rules presented in Covenants). If you really want something fluffier, though, maybe Motherhood or Reconciliation? I don't think you can get Imaginem out of it, but you might manage Muto.
The crones I don't think are numerous or biddable enough to constitute a horde. Inhabitants works better, and could probably count for Corpus or Imaginem.
That's fine on the Dedicated Building--I'm not even sure why that should require greater Upkeep, unless it's more difficult to heat or maintain--I wouldn't think that carrying food to another building would raise costs.
I'm also good with the crones as Inhabitants, since Viola can't manage the extra Virtue anyway (and won't be able to for some time). But I am curious whether the nature of the crones has changed (or even reverted?), and whether she still has to keep them locked up.
I don't see any real downside to Site of Legend, unless it would affect Safety or Warping--but that's up to you to decide. I see I had forgotten what activity specializations were, but you seem to be right, and anyway, Viola is pretty keen on keeping Items and Teaching (the former is her specialty, and in the latter she needs all the help she can get). How do you figure Muto, though? From the site's association with Halia's previous form? And would the same bonus apply for Greater Guardian? What does Halia represent at this point, anyway, other than motherhood?
I wonder if Faerie Ingredients might be logically paired with Thoroughfare: a bundle of ingredients is the toll for passage. Would enough fae be coming through to make that work?
Scott
Second pass at Shuba:
Just past gauntlet
Shuba Bjornaer Medvyednikov ex Wilkis
Covenant: Nova Castris
Saga: Base Camp
Characteristics:
Int +3 (Bright), Per +1 (Alert), Pre 0 (Unremarkable), Com ‑3 (Taciturn),
Str +1 (Powerful), Sta +6 (Indefatigable), Dex 0 (Deft), Qik 0 (Unhurried)
Appearance: Hagrid, without the charm...
Size: +2
Age: 25 (25), Height: 217 cm, Weight: 147 kg, Gender: Male
Decrepitude: 0
Warping Score: 0 (0)
Confidence: 1 (3)
Virtues and Flaws:
The Gift, Hermetic Magus,
Heartbeast (Kodiak Bear: Size 3),
Giant Blood,
Great Stamina × 2,
Affinity with Brawl,
Puissant Brawl,
Puissant Parma Magica,
Minor Magical Focus (Personal Transformations),
Skilled Parens,
Pagan,
Restriction (Not on consecrated ground),
Deleterious Circumstances (In cities),
Feral Upbringing,
Feral Scent (Penalty: ‑1 on social interactions),
Greedy
Personality Traits:
Greedy (sweet things) +1,
Pagan Belief +3,
Taciturn +3
Reputations: Unclean 2
Combat:
Superior Human‑Bone‑Handled Dagger: Init: +0, Attack +16, Defense +8, Damage +4
Superior Dagger: Init: +0, Attack +12, Defense +8, Damage +4
Dagger: Init: +0, Attack +10, Defense +8, Damage +4
Dodge: Init: +0, Attack ‑‑, Defense +7, Damage ‑‑
Fist: Init: +0, Attack +7, Defense +7, Damage +1
Kick: Init: ‑1, Attack +7, Defense +6, Damage +4
Grappling: Init: +0, Attack +7, Defense +7, Damage +1
Soak: +14 (This can be as high as 22 with a few spells.)
Fatigue levels: OK, 0, ‑1, ‑3, ‑5, Unconscious
Wound Penalties: ‑1 (1‑7), ‑3 (8‑14), ‑5 (15‑21), Incapacitated (22‑28), Dead (29+)
Abilities: [315xp]
Awareness 3 (alertness) [30xp],
Brawl 5+2 (dagger) [50xp],
Hunt 3 (man) [30xp],
Stealth 3 (natural areas) [30xp],
Survival 3 (foraging) [30xp],
Magic Lore 3 (creatures) [30xp],
Magic Theory 4 (Personal Transformations) [50xp],
Bjornaer Lore 4 (initiating self) [50xp],
Heartbeast 2 (into heartbeast) [15xp],
Parma Magica 1+2 (Mentem) [5xp]
Arts: [180xp]
Cr 8 [36xp], In 0 [0xp], Mu 8 [36xp], Pe 0 [0xp], Re 8 [36xp],
An 7 [28xp], Aq 0 [0xp], Au 0 [0xp], Co 7 [28xp], He 0 [0xp],
Ig 0 [0xp], Im 1 [1xp], Me 0 [0xp], Te 5 [15xp], Vi 0 [0xp]
Equipment:
Superior Verditius Fur Armor (Soak: 14) (Soak: 14; Protection: 8; Quality Armor: +2)
Superior Verditius Human‑Bone‑Handled Dagger
Encumbrance: 0 (1)
Spells Known (150 levels):
Form of the Melancholic Heartbeast (MuAn 25) +28. Focus. Personal. 1 target up to size +4
Gift of the Bear's Fortitude (MuCo 30) +28. Focus. Personal. 1 target up to size +4
HeartBeast of Outlandish Size (MuAn 15) +28. Focus. Personal. 1 target up to size +4
The Voice of the Bjornaer Magus (MuAn 20) +28. Focus. Personal. 1 target up to size +4
In Christ's Footsteps (ReCo 10) +21. Personal. 1 target up to size +4
Wizard's Sidestep (ReIm 15) +16 Focus.
Aura of Ennobled Presence (MuIm 10) +16 Focus.
Doublet of Impenetrable Silk (MuAn 15) +21
The Crystal Dart (Mu(Re)Te 10) +19
I shall advance heem a few years beyond gauntlet to account for his Verditius armor and weapon, and to give him access to a teacher of both Latin and Gothic, maybe a little Greek, as he will be joining Nova Castra.
Does the "Medvyed" part imply his heartbeast is a bear? And his parens is a wolf?
Where does the Verditius equipment come from?
Scott
Calling out that Fray has the same mMF in self transformation. I'm ok with it, but it means the magi are likely to be similar in what they do arts/spells wise.
My thoughts:
- The very animalistic Bjornaer is interesting, and I can see why he'd want to be at a covenant at the edge of civilisation.
- I think Kodiak bears are Alaskan, so outside the scope of Mythic Europe? It would just be a cosmetic change to be a brown bear, though, which are native.
- I'm dubious about the Feral Upbringing flaw and associated complete lack of language ability for a gauntletted magus. Why didn't his parens teach him? How did his parens teach him other things, without a shared language? Even if they had compatible heartbeasts, I'm not convinced "bear" is capable of conveying the intricacies of Hermetic magic in sufficient detail.
- Be aware (in case you're not) that General abilities outside of languages and Lores don't carry over into Heartbeast form - you use the animal's abilities instead. All of the xp you've put into brawl will therefore only be useful to him in human form (although the Puissant Brawl should still be useful, as virtues and flaws do carry over).
- You get the heartbeast virtue at a score of one from the virtue on its own, i.e. you get 5xp in it free. I think you may actually have allowed for this already, though, as the Abilities xp actually add up to 320 rather than 315.
- You've got 325 xp in abilities he could only have gained after the start of his apprenticeship, but only 300 xp available to spend.
- Aura of Enobled Presence will need a size magnitude (I think you've already included one in the other relevant spells).
- How is he getting to +8 Protection on the fur armour? Is it an Item of Quality, or is there an enchantment on it? Similarly, what's been done to the dagger to give it its bonuses?
- Bear in mind that my character, Gregorius of Tremere, really doesn't like paganism very much. This doesn't mean you shouldn't play a pagan magus, but you should be aware it is likely to affect relations.
Thanks for the feedback.
- Kodiak Bears are from Alaska. It is an indication of size: +3. Happy to call it Brown Bear. [Giant Blood]
- Another SG insisted that RAW meant no languages, at all, before beginning play. Very happy to rejig, taking +3 with a specialisation in Hermetic usage for both Latin and Gothic.
- Fully aware of general abilities don't carry over to the animal form.
- 5xp for Heartbeast is my error. I used MetaCreator to build him.
- I'll sort out the movement of 25 xp into appropriate abilities. MetaCreator, again, and me taking my eye off the ball.
- I think Imaginem does not need a size increase until things become very large. I'm away from my pc for the next two weeks. I'll find it when I return.
- The bonuses are from Verditius Runes on Superior equipment. I'll show my working when I return.
Always happy to be shown the error of my ways.
Ivan
Feral Upbringing actually says "You may only choose beginning abilities that you could have learned in the wilds. In particular, you may not start with a score in a language."
So if you apply that throughout his apprenticeship, he's not only barred from languages - he's also barred from Magic Theory and the Hermetic Arts. Which is a bit of a problem for a magus.
The problem is that if you say it only applies up to the start of the apprenticeship, it's not really all that much of a flaw - you've swapped a native language for wilderness abilities, yes, but how often would he actually use Russian (or whatever) in play as a magus? The 75 is probably more useful in the wilderness abilities.
One option, subject to troupe agreement, would be to create a variant flaw, say "Feral Youth":
So basically, it acts like Feral Upbringing prior to apprenticeship, but there's an additional xp reassignment in apprenticeship to make it actually a flaw (as you generally want to be spending that xp on things to do with magic). Not sure if the numbers and exact abilities are right or not.
The standard Individual for an Imaginem spell is the equivalent of an adult human being; whether a visual image of about that size, an auditory illusion making about that much noise, or whatever.
There's an old discussion of Feral Upbringing here, making some of the same points Salutor does:
My reading of the RAW agrees with your old SG, and it does stand to reason--if you've got character development after returning from the wild, it's just pushing around highly fungible skill points, arguably to the advantage of the PC, for something that should be a Flaw.
I think something like Salutor's solution would work.
Scott
I think it's the greater heat and maintenance costs. Which isn't really an issue as such for a regio.
There wasn't anything in the story which had any particular impact on the crones, so they can be assumed to be more or less as before.
For Muto, I was thinking mostly the changing into stone of people, and then back again, and the transforming nature of Halia. I don't think Halia specifically is Muto anymore. I think she's some combination of motherhood and wronged women.
I'm inclined to say "no" on the Thoroughfare (and associated Faerie Ingredients) - it's a destination for a handful of fae, but it's not a point on a larger route - there's only one way in and out (at least that Viola knows of), and people are only likely to go there if they're going there.
Works for me.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with that--true, they aren't mentioned explicitly in the story, but their present state, as far as I can tell, is a direct result of the degeneration of the temple after the transformation of its priestess. Granted, the priestess is no longer a priestess, but if she's changed, wouldn't the women who assisted her change in some way as well? Heh, maybe if she's now the personification of motherhood, they've become midwives. Well, that's just one idea, anyway.
Plus, they're kind of boring--Viola won't ever unbar that door, since they seem dangerous on the loose.
OK, if we're looking at the entire story, yeah, Muto is obviously at the center of it. It may not be active now, but most of the statues are still there as its embodiment, so I think this is justifiable.
I do think both motherhood and wronged women would make for wonderful inspirations that might shape the future path of Viola's magic, but picking something that narrow for a maga with anything less than total devotion to one of those foci would not be smart.
However, thinking sideways...if we consider the list of activity specializations in the book as at least semi-restrictive, you can make a strong case that motherhood falls under Teaching, especially that particular activity almost always applies to apprentices, who are the "children" of magi. But...Teaching maxes as +3, and it's already there. It's true that the current Teaching specialization comes entirely from Viola's Talisman, and that doesn't really have to be a lab item...but there's no other direct mechanism in the rules for quantifying its benefit for teaching, esp. given that in effect it's granting a +3 bonus to Com. Rats, that was a good idea.
Still...if we're thinking in that vein, the nurturing aspect of motherhood and the psychological aspect of wronged women could very well be encapsulated in Cr, Re, Co, and/or Me. Ultimately, since she can have four Art specializations, Viola will probably want Mu, Re, He, and Im--but Me could replace on of the other Forms.
I wonder if there might be any other justification for Faerie Ingredients, between the field at the top level and whatever the heck it is the crones are doing at this point?
Leaving the door firmly shut on them is certainly an option. Probably with an injunction to Chryse to never open it, but a distinct lack of (intelligible, given this is Viola) explanation as to why not.
Come to think of it, if Viola was feeling particularly machiavellian (and it is a character trait of hers, albeit only at +1), she could even integrate such a standard faerie story into a plot to change said crones into something more useful to her. On the downside, it would take careful work (or a substitute clueless prohibitee) to avoid traumatising Chryse further.
It's not implausible for the bonus to include some things that are not immediately useful to Viola, although there should be at least some elements that are useful to her.
I'd probably focus on Creo for motherhood. Wronged women feels Perdo or Corpus (or possibly Mentem).
You could possibly use the magically growing barley and poppies as Herbam based ingredients.
ironboundtome,
If the same mMF doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother me. Perhaps we can trade spells?
works for me.
Interestingly, the two magi seem to have quite different takes on the same focus - I suspect as Shuba is a Bjornaer, he's less interested in Fray's outright shape-changing spells?
Unfortunately it looks like the latest posting of his stats got lost in the recent forum blip.