Yes, level 20 would do without problems.
Cheers,
Xavi
Actually, no. It doesn't matter if the first "effect" comes from a spell or an item, I don't believe that effect can then cause something to later have Penetration.
Penetration comes with a spell effect - and the thing that the item created cannot later cast a spell effect of its own, item or no.
Then I did not explain it well - let me try again.
An effect is cast - from a spellcaster, from an item, anything. That effect will fail if it hits Magic Resistance, so Penetration is considered. With an Item, you can add Penetration to the effect to ensure that it will work against MR - fine.
In your first example, what is the effect? The effect is to change the salt to sweat poison. So any added Penetration makes sure that effect happens when the item is used. If the salt has MR, the Penetration fights that; if there's an Aegis, the Penetration works against the MR of the Aegis when the spell is cast - the effect works or it doesn't.
Then the effect is over, and the salt does its thing. Penetration either worked or it didn't to create the change, but then its work is done.
When a creature with MR eats the salt, they are then subject to magical poison, but there is no effect behind the poison now - that Creo effect was done long ago. The Penetration doesn't work against the creature, because the spell had nothing to do with the creature.
And that makes all the difference!
Now the magic is Creo'ing the poison in the creature, not in/on the salt, so Penetration works against the Creature's MR - all good.
Heh, nice. Vilano would be so proud.
Hmm... Somewhat tangential question....
If you make someone eat worms (turned into vegetables, for example), would they infect his intestines when the spell expires?
Xavi
Very crafty and devious!
But I foresee a problem with anchanting soemthing as flimsy as a pile of salt as an iten. has anybody considered what happens when the pile is divided? When the intended target doesn't use all the salt on one meal? Is this an instance where the item is broken up and thus fails to function?
Even if the crafter of the item tries hard to foresee how much salt is used in one meal, who is to say the target actually uses this? What if his wife snatches a single pinch for her own meal?
I see the same potential problems with doing this as a fluid or any sort of foodstuff which will be chewed. The charged device will simply be broken before it is activated.
Now if you could find something small enough to be swallowed whole. Do charged items need to obey any rules of size and material? No vis is used, so capacity should not matter! Enchant a single grain of salt then, and hope it is not crushed while the food is chewed. In this case I'd go for some kind of spice used in spiced wine, since the fluid will be swallowed and not chewed.
Also, I support a R:Touch not Personal. At R:Personal the salt poisons itself, this is of little use. Envision a staff with a MuHe effect. For wanting to change the wood, giving it other properties e.g hard as iron - this is ok. FOr wanting to affect something external to the staff at least R:Touch is needed.
But going back to a seed or kernel of some kind of spice. That's Herbam. A Muto Herbam R:Personal could transform this spice to a plant based poison, right? Muto or Creo - it doesn't matter which one, both make an unnatural substance and require Penetration (if the target has any semblance of MR)
Or one could do the same with Animal, transforming a chunk of meat into adder poison...This is actually very nice! Especially since I'm already fiddling with a new magus for a new saga - an Animal guy with an interest in poisons. 
Well sorry again by the personal range.
On Charged Items is clear that the charges can be put on anyway, only need a object. I supose and say that all the enchanted salt must be eaten, with the food. The grains enchanted are decided by the enchanter. It's like the potions. It's easy think that only when the dose is all works. If is not sufficent is "lost", simply.
About the effect and the object: The effect is that the charged X (potion, condiment, salt, air on a bottle, spoon, etc) creates something. The only magic whit that this is different truly is the Rune Magic, the Vitkir. The magic taint the object enchantd true, but the Penetratio si for the effct made by the object...
Jabir, you read the Penetration rule very different... by your interpretation a Firebreather wand can't use penetration because the fire is not part of the wand... or something like that.
I see that the enchanted item has tasted the forum.
Thanks to all, pals.
In my saga, the rule of cool trumps concerns over whether all of the salt is used or ingested. It is just an evocative story element and that should be more important than counting grains of salt.
Yes, it's like a potion... you put the salt and the part had eaten is the functions, i supose that depends on the group and all of that.
Well, Mario explains it nicely.
I'm afraid I had my 'realistic' goggles on, this is a occupational hazard of posting while takign a short coffee break from engineering work...
The rule of cool naturally says that the target uses enough salt to work, since the intent and work behind this scheme is sufficiently solid. Because one needs to remember that any good idea can be maliciously copied and abused by your enemies as well - if you use it too often and gloat too much about it!
Supposing one uses MuAn to create a charged device from a piece of meat which once ingested turns into a nasty animal poison, how long a Duration would this need? Will you be poisoned in an instant, so D:Mom is sufficient? Will it need to be digested and absorbed by the body, so D: Diam or even Sun will be needed? or is this a more modern view?
I said before that the Duration is Sun, by the Mark's reply I changed it. Since the poison is created inside, i think that make their effect just in that moment.
OTOH isn't this bordering on the old (potential) abusive exploit of using Muto to have an mundane and natural poison becone harmless for a duration, and trick the vitctim into ingesting it?
I've seen about Poisons on AA, and the effec Chronic is to one moist or dry toxic, the cold and the hot (like my magically created posion seem by the abrasive damage on flesh) work quickly.
If you're going with A&A you might want to consider your created poison as a Theriac following the Level 5 or 10 Cause Wounds guidelines on page 77 and the Replicating Formulae with Hermetic Magic rules on page 70.
It seems appropriate to add some sort of complications along these lines rather than just assuming a spell can create any sort of natural poison inside a person.
The magic is difficult, because needs Penetration and because it is 2 levels greater taht the creo herbam spell...
Are you saying me taht the Basic rules are too pwerfull and the opinions from many people included one Ars author munchkind? Again, the potions are on the rules, on the myth and the spirit. This is a salt, but still being a magical compound created by a wizard, and the game is called Ars Magica...
I'm not calling your spell munchkin by any means. Yours makes a real effort to define its effects reasonably, rather than trying for an effect like "CrTe - creates enough mercury in the victim's blood to kill them instantly" or the like, which I've seen before.
I do think we need to be very careful with spells that use Creo or Muto to create "unnatural" liquids, gasses, or solids. Something needs to take into account the chemical knowledge (or lack thereof) of the Magus and the complexity of the creation. The rules in A&A feel a little harsh to me but there has to be some mechanism to keep Magi from just creating any conceivable inception or medicine.
Fundamentally, causing wounds to a person is a Perdo effect. Finding creative ways to replicate this with other Arts is fine, but I think it should always be more difficult - either in terms of levels or in terms of additional complication like the A&A rules - than the equivalent Perdo.
Thanks but i am not being creative, I am reading the basic Creo Aquam rules.
This is the difference.
Where does "a very unnatural" substance stop and a "magical" substance begin? The Guidelines say nothing about creating magical poisons. 
Not that your spell is this, but one has to be careful and think things through before allowing anything - that's what (I think) J is saying.
Ok, but two things.
One mundane posioner or murderer can make the same that a magician, only that a mundane person only need contacts (and magi too). One person with a dagger, he can make a Mortal Wound without Magic, no MR or Lab Work. Only need a dagger and enter on the bedroom of the victim...
Using examples, of magic creating natural things: an adder, without Int + Finness, or scorpions... asnd that thing need penetration.
And of course that the Creo Aquam have guidelines about poisons: the quantity of a Individual, the rules about absortion and so on, i can repeat it: page 121. I am not inventing rules, i am reading. The poison is "magic" since it is made by magic, but the guidelines and the effect are basic.
Yep, muddy line. To each one his own, I guess 
Something that causes your body to process it and suffer damage/ill effects as a consequence is somewhat natural. A poison that makes an ivy grow in your entrails in Diameter duration and feed on your body fluids until you die in shearing agony would be somewhat magical, I suppose
Yep, for example, one poison just like this that causes ulcers, it still on natural side.
And one observation: the Sigil, all sigils taint any natural or clearly supernatural effect of spells and magical items, and it's said very taht this visual reqeriments are free: an water jet of blood, an skull of flames, all of that doesn't need requisites or magnitudes to be made.
You're right, I got caught up in Te effects and in the A&A rules I've been rereading to try to figure out Solomonic Alchemy. What you're doing is right there in the CrAq guidelines.
I don't see a rules issue now but it's certainly weird to me that Creo creates an explicit poison. Perdo could use a little more niche protection.
I would say it's a clearly magical poison if you go by the guidelines alone, since you would have to demonstrate chemical knowledge to create something natural and thus use something like the A&A rules. Not that that makes much practical difference since anything created by Creo is considered magical anyway for game purposes, barring use of Vis or something weird like Rune Magic.