Charging for Teaching Arts

Hi all,

As I'm hoping to start a saga in the next couple of weeks, I've been gen'ing up my own character, as a npc for the players (poor, spring) covenant, set in Venice.

I've recently noticed how good teaching is - a couple of comm points and good teacher and suddenly the character is generating a teaching qaulity score of 18 for hermetic arts straight out of gaunlet...I was planning on having him very much 'For the Order' (flammbeau) and i think having the teaching angel helps that aspects, as teaching 'strengthens' the bonds between magi and therefore the Order.

Now, I was trying to work out how a magus would charge for teaching, as it takes away from his own study time (ignoring the 2xp of exposure). I came up with this as a baseline idea (for Arts).

Number of Pawns equal to ;Teaching quality score/5 (round up) plus 1 per every 5 of students knowledge.

Eg. The teacher has a quality of 9 (basic magus), and the student has 0 in the art = 2 (9/5) + 1 (student between 0 and 5) = 3 pawns

Eg 2. The teacher has a quality of 9, and the student has 8 in the art = 2 (9/5) + 2 (student between 6 and 10) = 4 pawns

Eg 3. The teacher has a quality of 18 and the student has 12 in the art = 4 (18/5) + 3 (student is between 11 and 15) = 7 pawns

This keeps the number of pawns for a single season of work within sensible margins (i think), but means a good teacher easily earns a good wage for teaching, needing less time to harvest vis himself.

Another random thought, completely unrelated....writing books, a magus can never improve their quality of their tractatus, which seems a bit odd. Anyone have any house rules for that type of situation. I was thinking for books in general to have basic quality determined via Comm + Latin + 1. Mostly wont come into play, but if a player wants to be a brilliant scholar, there are some rewards?

Any thoughts or comments weclome

Kal

I would generally charge the mage being taught something similar to a season of their time a flat rate of 4 or 5 pawns of vis, access to a book I wanted, a spell text, some lab work or something similar

I would rather say something like 1 or more Vis per season spent teaching.
Making a formula for it like your´s means the characters has to know their character sheets exact numbers, ie metagaming, which is rarely a good thing if it can be avoided.

Better that involved magi agrees on something, like X vis per season, keeping the number somewhere reasonable.
Also, the X/season should first of all be based on the teaching quality, not the involved magi´s levels.

So lets say the teacher has a score 35 and the student 30...
13 vis... Starts getting really troublesome. How many tractatus of good quality can those 13 vis pay for?

Greater Tractatus, Write Quality= Com +7 +(Ability/2 rounded down)or+(Art/5 rounded down)
Takes 2 seasons to write instead of usual 1.

Thorough Tractatus= Quality +3, takes 1 extra season to write
Meticulous Tractatus= Quality +6, takes 2 extra seasons to write

Thanks for the quick feedback. I wrote out for the forumla as a guideline - more so that a magus could then haggle around a common costing, maybe just teaching quality/5 roughly? But yeah, bartering other services is also a good idea.

Direwolf, interesting suggestions on the tractatus, are they your own house rules, or from one of the published books?

Kal

They´re house rules. They have changed a few times but those i wrote have stayed around the longest and seems to be reasonably balanced.
With similar rules for trading longer writing time for improved quality for Summaes as well.

What my character did (3+Com+Good Teacher+Teaching+specialty around or just over 20) was charge 2 pawns of vis (with some restrictions on the type) per student and taught lots of students at once. Many would pay 2 pawns to get to study under that teacher since 2 pawns isn't that much for such a good quality. Multiply those 2 pawns by over a dozen students, and it's a pretty good take for a season. I had to pay a lot of silver to feed my students and house them properly, of course. But the other players were impressed by how well I did.

Chris

Edited to fix the 3 in the sum.

I've kinda gone a little crazy with the whole teaching thing this afternoon - gen'ed up a teacher magus and also a very cool teaching lab - +5 Upkeep (which isnt even that huge a cost silver wise) which grants a +13 Teaching Specialisation! Really wanna play the character and have him driven to establish one at his own covenant (a general lab, not his personal one) and then take the idea of teaching to other covenants (to have teaching become the primary means of learning, instead of books).

Nice idea about the 2 pawns thing - however, at least with Hermetic Arts, you can only teach one student at a time.

EDIT - Damn, just double checked the text, teaching specialisations are limited to +3 - damn damn damn....

Kal

Yeah, this is something that does interest me because I made a good teacher character for the Ad Fons game.

At base of 11 for teaching (Com 2 + 1 teaching + 3 + 5 good teacher). She is better than many books at a teaching source. Take only a single student and it rises to 17. This is an incredible teaching total. Considering a season spent teaching is not a season spent improving yourself, there should be a strong compensation and if you are teaching at a level that is better than most books in the order, it should be priced appropriately.

I agree.

I envision my own 'Teacher' magus trying to open the order's eyes to the potential of Teaching, especially for higher arts - as there really arent any summae above 20, leaving tractatus and vis. Tractatus suffer from poor to quality (mostly likely Qu 8-11) and studying from raw vis is just as bad (and more dangerous). Whereas a Teacher that is a specialist in one Art can teach all the way up to his own score, and at a very good quality, also add in +3 for lab specialisation and I (and my magus) believe that the order would push past the 'limit' of 40 for a single Art, as students would be taught quicker (Q20 with no level limit) and more experienced magi would continue to gain XP at a much faster rate. Supplment this with Tractatus (mostly for the teacher themselves) and exposure and maybe vis and the upper limit of ritual spells could be increased.

Teaching is even better when you consider the lack of new magic auras across europe.

For my own game, I am temped to ignore the +3 limit from lab teaching specialisation, as without it, I would have my magus push for the establishment of purely Teaching Lab (using the Elemental Major flaw), which would increase teaching more and help magi interact some more with each other (another important goal of his).

Kal

I don't think you should get rid of the +3 limit on teaching a lab can give you. But I can see making magic items for the lab that would give the teacher the "good teacher" virtue, and the student the "apt student" virtue.....

Interesting option, but I feel that simply removing the limit is easier and also puts it in line with all the other specialisations. The 'Teaching Lab' I built up, which gave +13 to Teaching, had a General Quality of -4, Upkeep +5, Size +5 and you could ONLY perform teaching there. I do not see that as game breaking. It does however, give the possiblity of the creation of purely 'Univeristy' covenants, that only have teaching labs and are not in an aura - that is what I would like to play out with a character given the opportunity as a player.

Kal

The option has the happy perk of improving teaching while keeping it in the realm of "possible". The game wants teaching to be useful, but not too useful. If you got rid of the limit on teaching in lab, it would get out of hand in most games. I could easily see a lab with a +30 to teaching......

From what is in the book, I believe the highest is +15 - +13 is the highest without using a flaw to contribute to the total (and the flaw seems illogical when combined with all the other virtues the lab has). Of course, in the book, only 1 feature/focus has teaching as a speciality.

Kal

Yes, but I can use magic items to improve lab stats as high as I want so long as I have ideas, time and vis.........

If you want to stick with RAW, that wont work quite as well as you expect since Arts can only be taught to single students.
We usually didnt bother about that. Simply because the idea is neat, the restriction is silly and having a hoarde of magi trying to squeeze together and decide who is to teach what, just that alone can be plenty of fun... :wink:

It IS a bit low compared to the kind of specialisations you can get in other areas without much trouble, but i strongly suggest you dont remove the limit completely. Otherwise i can probably figure out a combination of magi build and lab build to get above 40+ teaching score. Thats not quite so good for the game.
Raise the limit to +5 or thereabouts perhaps?

Maybe add a special book type that gives a bonus to teaching. :wink:

I was considering modifing the elementary flaw to include something along the lines of "if Teaching is chosen, then ihe maximum Teaching specialization is increased to +9"".

Another thought on teaching the Arts - instead of the ONLY one-to-one, instead have it that a Teacher may teach an Art to a number of students up to his Teaching score (instead of the Teaching x5 for mundane subjects).

Kal

Just ran some numbers, with the correct teacher and student with RAW, you can achieve a teaching quality of 37, assuming that puissant (Teaching) doesnt improve the quality and that the Teacher has Teaching of 10.

Kal

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. But regardless, I think we can do a lot better with RAW. Do note, Puissant Teaching does increase the Quality, but it does not increase the Level.

Student:
Mutable Apt Student

Teacher:
Mutable Good Teacher
Mutable Puissant Teaching
Mutable Essential Trait (Minor)
Communication +5
Teaching specialty +1

Lab:
+3 Teaching

That's 3+6+2x5+2x5+2x2+2x3+5+1+Teaching = 45+Teaching. If we drop the cheesiness of Astrological Mutable virtues (change the Essential Trait to major), then we still get 3+6+5+5+2+6+5+1+Teaching = 33+Teaching. Did I miss anything?

Chris

Edit: Fixed something I overlooked when dropping Astrological Mutable.

Impressive. I have no idea what the Mutal bits are about, but your 30+Teaching is what I could come up with.

Thinking about it some more, I'm beginning to feel that the one-to-one restriction is what is keeping Teaching of the Arts from becoming the prominent method of teaching among senior magi...

Kal

Actually, I've edited it. 33+Teaching. When dropping Astrological Mutable (see TMRE) Essential Trait I forgot to switch to the major version of Essential Trait to prevent a loss of 3 points but at the expense of more virtues.

Chris