Circle Duration & Existing Spells

Games Discussion Ars Magica
41

I would agree.

I would add to this that the "target" of circular wards should be clarified. If I recall correctly, what is currently the most consistent is that it is the space within the circle that is the "target" and anything in that space is thus affected by the protection. I recall a recent conversation trying to identify its "target" in another way kept producing problems, but I'm not sure where that was to dig it up. That still leaves this whole question of what is inside the circle as a whole separate question, though; just that the targeted space would be defined by that choice.

42

For clarity on canon, we have the general statement about circular wards:

We also have explicit statements about this spell:

43

Is there a rule somewhere that says you can't trap a demon in a ward unless it wants to be trapped? If there is could you point me at it? The passage in RoP:tI says they aren't going to let you just do it without a fight, but if a mage has the initiative and can draw the ring/circle fast enough, the demon doesn't have much say in it. There are other ways too, but we're talking about things that can fly in general as it relates to your Plane of the Circle idea.

Using the Plane of the Circle: is it impossible to trap a thing which can jump/fly in a ward unless it is sitting on the ground when you cast the spell and then it is stuck to the ground because it's trapped in the ward and unable to make itself not be in contact with or bisected by the Plane of the Circle? Or can it just jump/fly up and no longer be affected by the ward?

The first means that circular wards also glue you to the floor/surface the ward is on, which seems silly and I feel that deserves a mention if it is true. The latter makes it so anything with the ability to jump or fly is impossible to use a circular ward against because they can just jump or fly and no longer be affected which I cannot believe is true.

44

I am aware of no rule saying demons must want to be trapped. I suppose it is possible the demon will slothfully laze about for the minimum one round required while the circle is traced around it by the speedy and agile wizard.

I don't think anything would be physically glued to the plane, but they would be metaphorically stuck, if it is a trap.

45

A 1 pace diameter circle can cover an entire man inside it, not just his knees. A 1 pace diameter circle can cover a 20 foot tall stone pole inside it. Someone standing at the edge of a circle is not less covered than someone standing in the middle of it. You can't just fly or jump over a circle that holds you in it, so it must have a lid/ceiling/roof.

If these are true then that means that the shape cannot be a regular sphere. A prolate sphere can work and a cylinder with a lid (either domed or flat) can work, which is basically a prolate sphere of a certain height. An oblate sphere can work for very wide circles for a nice big circus tent big-top dome.

I think the main options for the 3D shape of a ring/circle is "whatever is necessary for it to work, it has a lid" (a bit wishy-washy, have to adjudicate the army blaster on the wall) or "a shape, with a lid, that reaches to the lunar sphere" or "a shape, with a lid, that reaches at least as high as the tallest thing in it so you're not squashed" or attaching a height value to the diameter of the circle, eg: a one pace diameter gets you 4 paces tall or whatever other value you want.

The Ring/Circle virtue that lets you use natural boundaries and rooms as rings/circles would just let you break these rules for those things and if you do a thing around the border of a city then the height is basically until the Lunar sphere if you do the specific measurement thing.

I did have a thought a couple of days ago about what happens if the ring used gets smaller (either through using shrinking magic, or embiggen magic wearing off), do the things inside get trash-compacted? Does the ring stop shrinking because there is resistance? But I think that's for another thread about rings/circles and shrinking clothes/armour/helmets and not this one.

46

I have decided that "B" and "either, choice when the spell is designed" are both acceptable and I'd be happy with them, but A is not. Because under A, a demon summoned into a pre-existing circle ward would be entirely unaffected by it, having not been in the circle for the casting of it. And that (the summoning of a demon or other spirit into a prepared circle) is far too iconic a scene to rule out of existence.

Therefore, A-only is not kosher, unless you make specific exceptions for wards, which would work but I'm not thrilled by.

I think I'd prefer B-only to free choice, just for simplicity, but not strongly.

47

Wards were mentioned as an exception because the target would be the "area inside the circle" and they sort of just make a big magical wall so a thing coming into the area after it was cast would still be trapped.

Suppressing the Wizard's Handiwork to make the ward not work, summon demon, immediately cancel concentration/whatever other factor you've got to reactivate the ward can work. RoP:tI mentions using Watching Ward to detect when a demon is in the area and activate the ward to trap it, but afaik Hermetic Magic can't really detect demons like that? The book says that's the most common way of doing it though and Watching Ward isn't super integrated into the theory anyway. Watching Ward with Demon Trap Ward in it, summon demon inside the watching ward, demon detected, trap ward active, you've got a demon trapped now.

48

Other options:

  • Command the vile Spirit or a different ReVi that is limited to immobility to force it to stay in one place (helpful to have a team of 2 for this trick or a version of the spell that is not Concentration duration).
  • Summoning summons the spirit (possibly a demon) into a circle they, depending on level of success of the summoning test, can’t get out of. One could easily create a Ring/Circle ward around that circle.

But, yes, circle wards behave differently since the target is really the line where the warded thing can not cross or act across or damage.

49

And something I didn’t notice before, Adjuration of the Hell-Sworn Spirit allows you to summon them into a ward.

If the magus has prepared an arcane circle, such as in the spell Ward Against Demons, he can force the demon to appear within it.

50

Suppose we have a staff with lots of rings carved onto it, and a magus casts T:Circle D:Ring ReAn Circular Ward Against Beasts of Legend on them to imprison faerie bees within each circle. As he walks with his staff, do the bees stay stuck within the circles, thrashing around in tiny invisible bubbles perhaps? Or what?

Suppose we cast a Ward Against the Curious Scullion (Covenents p. 104) on a circular door. This is a D:Ring T:Circle spell, normally cast around the laboratory. Supposedly, the spell would prevent a person from crossing the door (cf. The Avariciousness of the Ptolemaics on p. 100). Does the spell allow a mundane to touch the door?

Suppose we cast a T:Circle invisibility spell, with option B, with people already in the circle at the time of casting. Are they not affected by the spell? For David's wording says "The spell affects any valid target that enters the circle for its duration", and they didn't enter the circle.

Suppose we cover the above circle with dirt. Is anyone entering it still affected by the invisibility effect?

51

It's amazing anyone was able to play this game. :wink:

I did think about the cone from the centre of the earth to the lunar sphere, but the shape of that cone is really wrong if the circle is not horizontal; for a vertical circle, it's basically a triangle touching the circle on a tangent just below the mid-point, so the spell affects things that are very clearly not in the circle. You can make it a cylinder to the lunar sphere in either direction, but a vertical circle ward against mundane humans would be rather more impactful than intended, if scribed anywhere within a reasonable distance of a city. (Although that might be a cool story idea for an experimental, hard-to-reproduce effect. The circle is scribed vertically in a cave deep underground, in such a position that the cylinder goes right through the centre of Paris…)

I'm not sure that, in practice, "is it inside the circle?" is any vaguer than "does the caster's voice carry to that location?". In practice, in both cases the troupe ask the SG. In Mythic Europe, I imagine magi spont trivial spells with the appropriate RDT to find out. ("Is this a room for Hermetic purposes?" MuIm 5 "Make everything in this room momentarily pink" Answer determined based on whether everything turns pink. May be harder for a larger room, but testing on small rooms means that magi will have a very good idea of what qualifies.)

Another problem that was raised by the reference to the plane of the circle: suppose the circle is a stone wall, twenty paces tall. (Probably a CrTe wall to get an accurate circle, but magi can do that.) Where is the plane of the circle? Is it the top of the wall, where the magus traced? Does that mean that people standing on the ground are not affected? That doesn't seem right…

On the topic of breaking the circle, placing a sheet of parchment over a circle is fine. The circle isn't broken, just hidden. Things on the next page are not within the circle, however. That, however, is inviting logic chopping, so maybe it would be better to say that the circle has to be physically broken, not just have something on top of it. (Come to that, which is the top? Is a circle on a floor broken because the floor covers the whole of the underside? Can I place a metal ring on a grate and use it as the circle, or do the bars of the grate break it?) If the circle has to be broken, but things are not inside a circle that is hidden relative to those things, then you could have a buried enchantment that suddenly comes back to life when excavated. Also a good story seed.

(As @YR7 points out, option B needs to be slightly reworded, as people in the circle at the time of casting should certainly be affected.)

Comments? (I do need to make an actual decision eventually, but not just yet, and I think the discussion is still very useful.)

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52

That works better. Plus, without it we would then have to start asking how close the covering is, such as the ceiling over the circle in this room hiding the circle from above, so is the circle broken?

53

You should make quite clear whether a T:Circle can target the circle itself, or only things inside the circle. Reasoning being, given the explicit requirement for the circle to be physically broken, I expect a Ring/Circle Hardness of Adamantine type effect (of whatever Form is relevant to the stuff of your circle) to be extremely useful if it can target the circle, and extremely not if it can only target the contents of the circle.

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54

Good question, can a circle target itself?

If not then an enchanted ring with a constant effect works, a Touch/Duration/Ind (depending on how big the ring or circle is obv.) on the ring or circle would work too for sure.

55

A Ring/Circle Ward is "targeting itself".

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56

Hmm, that would work. It would also allow summoning a demon into a circle ward without having to suppress it with ReVi and set up a Watching Ward (that apparently can conveniently ignore the Limit of the Infernal and detect demons in this circumstance and this circumstance only) with a PeVi targeting the ReVi suppression to reactivate the circle ward when the demon appears, which is a horrifyingly janky and awful procedure and I hate that it's apparently canon.

It does contradict what a few people have said upthread, that a circle ward affects the area, and thus creatures that show up later are still warded because the area is warded. (In which case, imo, the ward should not need to penetrate. But I tremble to raise the spectre of that ancient debate, particularly as I like wards needing to penetrate.)

It might also be a difference between inward- and outward-facing circle wards; it would neatly avoid the implication that an inward-facing ward traps the creature by warding the entire rest of the world against it, as a "wards affect the area warded" interpretation would tend to imply.

57

If the top of the wall defines the plane, the wall is certainly affected, so the people inside are essentially inside a dish/dome/container. It does seem odd, though, I'll admit; possibly due to habit of thought. Is it much odder than the column to heaven concept?

58

Perhaps it would work better if the axiom/guideline was:

An object is affected by a Circle if it is in the space of the Sphere of the Circle.

So, the man (for example) partly covered by the sphere is fully protected.

(I try to be reasonable. :smiley:)

59

This is already explicitly allowed by the demon summoning spell Adjuration of the Hell-Sworn Spirit as I noted above.

60

Where's this located?