Claiming a Site for a Spring Covenant

I've always thought this would be an amazing place to start a Spring Covenant...

virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/

My vision be slightly different...

Perhaps a young magus has found a site she would like to start a covenant. But what I see more likely happening is the tribunals acknowledging the need for expansion due to the emergance of new magi. (We don't want them at our house taking our vis, so where do we put them?) Either they already know of a sight in mind, or some older magi (who would be more able to survive hunting for a suitable site) has suggested one. These suggestions would all recieve heavy debate within a tribunal (everyone sees the need for a new covenant, but can't agree on where it should be put). When a site is finally agreed upon within tribunal, it would be made public knowledge that there is a site available for magi to build upon. Then there is the jockying of position to get a magus into that new covenant (perhaps there is a commitee overseeing the whole affair).

Why not just have a young magus go out and claim thier spot o' land? Because tribunals don't like squatters. You could be sitting out there for years, claiming your spot only to be shot down by tribunal. Why would they say no? Because that's part of the control of a tribunal. Otherwise you could have covenants sprouting up all over the place. And I think all tribunals would want covenants pre-approved before they start 'breaking ground,' even Stonehenge. Older magi and older covenants don't want you starting up something too close, so I think they would make provisions in the periferal code to stop such. (We want to use electricity made from wind power, but just don't put any wind mills where they will obstruct our view :unamused: )

I don't see a new magus being able to survive in some regions where new covenants typically sprout up. I'm not sure how the new magi meet each other, a giant meet and greet for newbies? In our saga, our magi hale from all across the Order. How did they meet and decide that they liked each other enough to start a new covenant together? I feel that if it was done this way, you would have a lot more house-specific covenants.

On the other hand... if a magus did start squatting (just put thier sigil up on a tree and started building a hut), what kind of clout would a tribunal have to remove the squatters? That would be removing a magus of his magical powers. But if you didn't move squatters, you could have sactums popping up everywhere... :confused: My head hurts.

Well, you can't "have sanctums popping up ~everyewhere~" - there are some practical limits, such as the desire for labs, and the other mutual benefits of a covenant. And I'd think some covenants have a reasonable claim to nearby territory, certainly whatever is within a half-day's walk (i.e., from the covenant, there and back again), the Hermetic version of the "cannonshot" rule.* And a sanctum implies somewhere a mage feels secure - were I a mage, I would not feel secure in much less than... a covenant, with grogs and walls and other magi around when I'm not.
(* In early international law, a country was recognized to "own" only the water beyond its shores that it could hit with a cannon, a practical adjudication for several obvious reasons.)

I'm not sure I agree with your view of Tribunals as entities jealous of their central authority, either. A few, certainly (Rhine, Alps, Transylvania perhaps), but most are an ad hoc congregation that meet every 7 years typcially with far more on their mind, and then only a few magi are excited about that level of organization and control. As for the rest... meh. Hell, some Tribunals, it seems, would be overjoyed at any new blood!

The idea of "squatters" implies an previous notion of "ownership" - few Tribunals pretend to claim authority over the entirety of their territory, at least not until there ~is~ a covenant on it. The rest is tabla rasa.

Yep. There's even an example in canon: Triamore. It was founded at the court of Conrad III of Germany, and to quote: "By the autumn of 1151 Triamore was founded: a confederation of three magi, established as an entity but lacking a home" (Triamore p. 33). It wasn't until 1158 that the covenant was granted a permanent site in Brabant.

There's also mechanics for covenants without a site provided in Covenants (ArM5 version), namely the hooks "Constantly Mobile" and "Hangout" (the latter reflecting a home base). Two examples in the "Covenant Situations" section are Expedition and Quaesitorial Agents.

This makes a lot of sense, and raises an interesting point.

In the Sagas chapter of ArM5, it is explicitly left undetermined how organized the Order actually is. In a vision of the Order that leans toward the organized end of the spectrum, I think skridragon hit the nail on the head. However in a very disorganized Order it would not be possible.

So I would say (to newbies), talk it over with your players. How much do they want political and legal matters to be in the foreground of the Sagas? Then set the tone of the Order accordingly.

There is also the precedent of the itinerant covenant of Semitae (which wanders around in magic wagons) in Heirs to Merlin.

^^ And another I've just remembered: Venti Rosa in Blood and Sand.

I also vaguely remember a covenant that was either a big ship or a fleet of ships, but I can't say that was canon.

Um, there was something like that in Mythic Seas, I think? Their island had sunk and the covenant was now in ships that floated over the island?

Sorry, I haven't read Mythic Seas in a long while. Strangely, once you get past the idea that the mechanics don't really work and the fact that the Jerbiton who tries to disband the Order is a suicidal nutjob, there's actually some good stuff stashed away in there. I wish we'd stolen more of it for City and Guild. We could have cleaned it out right proper and didn't, which seems a waste in hindsight.

There is a mentioning of this in the Covenants book under Boons & Hooks, Major Site Hooks, Constantly Mobile. The 'Covenant of the Crisp Winds' lives on a flotilla of ships, which follows a route around the Mediterranean.

I wonder what Tribunal they're attached to... and how that was determined. :confused:

The example covenants given in the Boons section of Coveannts are marked as being "non-canonmical and unsupported in future supplements". Which is to say I wanted to get my Italo Calvino on, and do some potentially really surreal stuff, and not force later authors to go "Oh, man. There's this one line in Covenants and its claimed this city I want. Damn that Ferguson to Hell!"

So, on the basis that these guys are not, you know, canon...I suspect they are in the Roman Tribunal. The Roman Tribunal has claimed chunks of North Africa at times, IMO, and provided the keep some sort of point of presence, being in the wet bit between the two dry bits of the Tribunal wouldn't be musch of a problem for them.

Or, alternatively, they might just have a sort of Point of Presence in Venice.

Hell yeah! I had quite a laugh with the highly magical environments presented in Covenants, like the Dog Page et al :laughing: No way we are using them, but that kind of stuff tends to become a recurrent joke among us! A knight in our saga (a NPC) says "bad doggie!" each time a servant of his does somethign wrong :stuck_out_tongue:

Cheers,

Xavi

Aye. Living of piracy. Arrrrh (waving of hooked hands) :smiling_imp:

I've used many ideas from Mythic Seas in my saga - partly because of having a merchant companion character (and being prior to C&G) and because one character went on an epic journey across the Mythic Seas from Glouchester to Constantinople - and he even had a run in with these pirating sorts in Marseille (I do love the description of that city in the book).

My troupe loved most of those examples and even took one straight as written. They've settled on Loch Leglean as the home Tribunal and decided to put their covenant near Stirling. having already decided upon the Children hook when the example of the Hedge Tradition boon was read out (involving a covenant near Stirling and its control of the local midwives) there was an all but unanimous chorus of agreement and the boon was taken as written; example and all.

I'm worried; we have a lot of Hooks and Boons and they're all justified by the back story they, we've, come up with...

In essence Harco and Magvillus have decided to 'reclaim' Loch Leglean from the rogue elements that have corrupted it. To this end they've sent a pack of Hoplites, the Wolfsatz, to investigate the tribunal as a whole. they've also sent a young (but not inexperienced) Quaesitor and a, urm, Bloodcap (who is roughly local) along with a bunch of recently gauntleted magi to found a mixed covenant (including a Mercere house) on the site of a formerly (twice or thrice) failed covenant.

Unfortunately the site is still occupied by the descendents of the grog who survived the cataclysm that ended the previous covenant. I say unfortunately as they've taken to banditry to survive... and while they're quite happy to have Magi back they're not prepared to stop their livelihood just on their say so. That's just the start of the Troupe's problems.

So we've gone for an extreme example - the Covenant exists because powerful magi have decided it must and they're recruited a bunch of recently gauntleted magi to make sure of it. The redcaps know of it because one of them is running a hostelry for them there and the Quaesitors know of it because they're behind its refounding. It has an Arae Flaviae charter (pre-written by a scribe in Magvillus) but until the Tribunal of 1221 it is not officially a part of Loch Leglean, or any, Tribunal.

Should be an interesting year.

I'd think that if you and your friends want to go claim some random rock as your covanent site your perfectly able to do so.
The problem comes at tribunal when all the established covanents decide to vote that you are not a lawfully established covanent (since you didn't bribe them sufficiently to vote in your favor), as such you can live there, you may even get a redcap to stop by if your lucky, but you'll have no voting rights in tribunal, and essentially be considered a group of wandering magi.
After that it will be easy for the "legal" covanents to treat you however they want, with your only real defense being at grand tribunal (which not being established you probally can't lobby/buy enough votes for your favor)

Consider the following...
3 newly gauntleted magi find a spot rich in vis and has a good aura. They decide to set up a covanent. The other covanents in the area are finding it more difficult to locate new vis sources and have to travel furthar afield for each one.
Tribunal comes; the new covanents anounces it's self. The "old timers" figure there must be something of value there, and since they were never lobbied/bribed vote no to establishing the covanent.
Next thing you know one of the new conanents vis sources is contested. They take this to tribunal....but wait they have no power here! and are easily voted down. Waiting upto 33yrs for the grandtribunal, since being fresh from gauntlet they don't have the skills to certamen or wizards war or the contacts for the politics, they present at grand tribunal. The other covanents using the "stolen vis" can easily out lobby them for votes.
In the end the new covanent is left with little more then the aura around the rock they claimed.

Basically if you want to found a new covanent you better get your politics in order 1st before going a squating on some rock in the middle of the woods.

See, this I don't get. What does being in a covenant have to do with voting rights? If I'm a mage, and I have my sigil and I live in a tribunal, why shouldn't I get to vote?

I agree. Eremites have just as much right to vote at tribunal; membership in a covenant is not a prerequisite to having a voice in the business of the area.

Not only that, but unless it's defined in your saga (or you're using the setting specific ideas described in GotF or L&L) I don't think there's any indication that establishing a covenant requires a vote of approval from the rest of the Tribunal members. You show up, you set up shop and you're there. Hello. Thanks. Goodbye.

If your neighbors don't like it, they've got a number of avenues of recourse against you, some legal, some dubious, some illegal--

  1. They can stalk you to learn where your vis sites are and then challenge you to certamen for control of each site. Hanging out and watching you all the time isn't scrying, though it is creepy.

  2. They could attempt various subtle manipulations of the local area such that the craftsmen and powers-that-be work to make your existence a miserable trial of resource shortages and mundane "entanglements." Then, at tribunal, they can levy allegations of interference. Good times.

  3. They could declare Wizard's War on you. Anytime, any reason. "I don't like you in my backyard. Get gone or I will glass your worthless excuse of a sanctum and hang your polished skull from my lintel as a warning to any other freshly gauntleted fools."

There are most definitely others, limited only by the cruelty of your SG, but those are the ones that quickly spring to mind (spring! ha!) when I think of what we've seen from the not-so-nice neighbor that doesn't like our covenant.

This all goes back to the sort of atmosphere your saga places the Order within. Are they fairly social within the Order itself? Is the Order a bit more reclusive amongst itself? Do wizards see each other as brethren or competitors? Does your covenant's growth look like the growing strength of the Order or further consumption of limited resources in an area already strained by growing Dominion?

No, not all wizards are curmudgeon-y, antisocial, conniving recluses intent on keeping a long driveway because it gives them ample time to reload as you approach. But those wizards do exist, and it could be that having them live next door is going to make for good story. It's something to keep in mind when you select the 'rivals' hook.

But then, that's also why I'd say you want to keep a low profile when you first get things going...the longer no one but Redcaps know where you are, the better, if only to reduce the number of unexpected guests.

-Ben.

If they don't use magic then scrying is not against the code. However, if the covenant registers its vis sources with the Mercere house of the tribunal, then I don't think certamen is going to be of any use. Tribunals would be very wary of allowing that abuse, IMO, because it means anyone could steal their vis sources al long as they are able to beat them in certamen. That way lies anarchy.

Certainly possible, although if they are caught they would have a very hard time at the Tribunal, IMO.

Yes. That's the ultimate threat. If they are willing to take that risk it's perfectly legal. Of course, before declaring a Wizard's War, it would be very useful to get arcane connections, which could make a good story seed.

I view the order much as modern politics, everyone wants to get/keep as much power for their support group as possible. Since the old covanents have already been around making the laws it's resonable to expect the laws to favor them. Look at texas a few years ago it made news with redistricting so sitting politicians could keep their majority by regulating where their votes were comming from. This is simmilar to what magi would do, by not allowing new covanents unless they'll be allies.

Why don't wandering magi have a vote? They are wandering magi! There is nothing to tie them to the tribunal, its like saying I can go on a cross country trip and vote at each state election. Or like near the civil war where states would recruite people from other areas to come vote in favor of slavery or free. So instead they can have their vote at the grand tribunal which effects every one.

And just about all ignore the fact that I was mentioning newly gauntleted magi. If someone 5 years out wants to certamen or declare wizards war on someone 50+ years out they are welcome to...but unless they get lucky they dont have much chance. Sure they can stick around and be creepy, but remember the other side can do wizards war and certamen too.

Starting a new covanent is a perfect example of why you'd want a tremere in your covanent, they may be newly gauntleted, but they already have their politics in line.

As long as there are other Tremeres in the Tribunal...