Column of Water

A Criamon maga in our saga who enjoys creating “interesting” effects wants to create a column of water in her lab. "Why?" is anyone’s guess at this point, but I thought I would share the plan, and get comments from the other members of this esteemed company.

Step 1: Create a “magical circle”
Using ReTe, create a circular indentation, two paces across, in the stone floor of her lab. (R: Touch, D: Momentary, T: Circle (The maga intends to draw a circle on the lab floor outlining where the indentation is to be. The amount of stone being moved is much less than one cubic pace.) Base 2 (control or move dirt in a slightly unnatural fashion) +1 stone, +1 touch, +1 precision for a level of 5. The stone should remain in this new formation without any magic needed to sustain it.

The maga then fills this little moat with sand, and with MuTe, turns it into a single piece of iron. R: Touch, D: Ring, T: Circle The idea here is to use the circle in the floor to hold the sand as iron with D: Ring. Base 4 (turn dirt into metal) +1 Touch, +2 Ring, +1 Size for a spell level of 20.

Step 2: Create a water column
Using CrAq with a Re requisite, create the column of water within the iron circle. (R: Touch, D: Ring, T: Ind) Base 4 (Create water in an unnatural shape) +1 Touch, +2 Ring, +1 requisite for a level of 20.

Some questions…
Do we have the mechanics right? (Duration: Ring spells sometimes give me headaches.)
Does she really need the iron ring, or would the stone indentation suffice as a ring for the water column spell?
Could she get water out of the column, or place something into the column without breaking the ring?
What could she possibly want with a column of water? (I am envisioning some sort of magical fish tank, but it seems like more stable containers could be created.)

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated.

Mmm, target Circle?

No, but it makes the Ring much harder to break (especially accidentally).

My guess is not. And since its Creo Ring i dont think i would allow it anyway.


Lol, who knows! Walkthrough bath? :wink:
A good place to practise fire spells against?

It does not. As soon as the moat breaks, the iron circle turns to sand. Unless you believe the iron protects the moat which is doubtful.

Using a ReTe circle to form the iron ring would sidestep this problem, but why not use an Individual Target then.

BTW, what breaks a Ring in pretty undefined. Having some guidelines might be useful.

The Flambeau use a similar spell as a CrIg ring of fire that they use to test the endurance of their members.

Creo will make the unnatural shape. You need a Rego requisite to hold the water in this unnatural shape.

No, you can't remove the water from the ring. Yes, things can be put in or stand in.

It would be great for someone with a study bonus, a study requirement or for an esoteric laboratory bonus of of + X Aquam; + X Rego; (+ X warping?)

Also, what Path is your Criamon? If on the Path of Strife, he might just want the company.

Criamon are fun.

If the iron ring turns back into sand, does that break the ring that is holding the water? I assume so.
When that happens, the water will just disappear, since it was created with Duration: Ring, right? Makes cleanup quite a bit easier. :slight_smile:

Since the ring is in her lab (and she's not know to be clumsy), I am now wondering why she wants the moat or iron ring at all. She could get the same Aq effect with a drawn ring!


That's normal - it gives almost everyone headaches

The stone idention is fine - and the most dodgy bt of sorcery planned is the spell to turn the sand into iron!
Ditch it and save time

Out of the column: no. The water stops existing when it leaves the circle.
Place something into the column... should be possible if she's a little careful.

It's a Criamon, who knows? Fish tank is possible, so's some sort of lab bonus. Many magi have funky effect in their sancti "because I can!" - it doesn't need to make sense.

Right - then I'll just be a spoilsport and direct your attention to the Targets and Creo box on p. 113 of the ArM5 rulebook.
I'd probably just ignore it, but it's there.

Step 1 : I think she needs a Part target for the very first part of her experiment: if I understand right, she is creating a small moat in a stone, and the stone itself is therefore not entirely with the circle. Besides, a circle target affects everything within the circle, so she would create a bowl, not a moat. Or she could pay a stonemason to do it for her.

Filling it with iron is entirely redundant: she already has a solid circle. adding to it change nothing. Besides, whatever breaks that 'moat' circle will immediately break the 'iron' circle since it uses a Ring duration tied to the moat.

Step 2 seems right, the base for controlling the water is lower than the one for creating, so using the Creo guideling with a Rego requisite is correct.
Edit: except the target must be individual, not circle, because circle is not a valid target for Creo, as the previous poster just mentioned. That doesn't make the Rind duration invalid, however, and an individual target is plenty enough to create her column.

As for breaking the circle, that's the part where the rules are frustratingly vague. Obviously physically destroying either the moat or the iron ring break it, but whether say, dropping a piece of iron across it breaks it is left to ST fiat. Personally, since Ring/Circle are so cheap for the effect, I tend to err on the side of them being easy to break, but that's just me. I'd rule that anyone deliberately trying to break the circle would instantly succeed, for instance.

The spell specifically has to hold the water in its shape, so trying to take some out would be resisted by it: the water would just move whichever way it needed to stay inside. Theoretically you could use a watertight container and force the issue, but at that point I would definitely rule that the circle is broken. Besides, if you take the target of the spell out of the circle, the ring duration immediately expire, whether the circle is intact or not, so no taking any of the water out.

Getting something inside the column should be possible (provided whoever puts it knows enough about circles not to break the one below), but it is not subject to the spell keeping the water in place. So if it is more water, it will pour out the sides (just the added water, not the original); if it is a fish, sooner or later it will swim out; a floating leaf would likewise sooner or later fall off. You'll need more magic if you want to keep it there.

As for what she want, well, for starter it provides exposure to Aquam if the has the Study Bonus / Study Requirement virtue or flaw. As a level 20 spell, it can provide a laboratory with up to 2 points in specialization, or one point in characteristic (aesthetics maybe ?), or mimic a virtue (Lesser or Greater Feature, or if your maga is really ambitious even Natural Environment, with a lot more work). Of course, being a spell it is somewhat restricted: it cannot provide points in a specialization corresponding to the arts used in casting it (so no specialization in aquam, creo or rego), and it either adds one to Warping or subtract one to safety.

Or she could just want a fancy fish tank. She's a Criamon, so who knows.

Doh! Sorry my mistake i misread it in a very silly way.

As many other posters have mentioned, no need for all the Terram stuff. Just have a trusty craftsman chisel the stone in your lab. If you feel like it, you can duplicate the craftsman's work through a Level 4 Rego Terram effect with a 9+ Finess roll - see HoH:S, p.61).

Also, personally I'd split the effect in two. One Rego effect to hold the water in place, and an optional Creo one to create it. In this way, you can use either mundane or magical water depending on your needs, and the final levels are pretty low.

The Rego effect is probably Level 5 or Level 10 "Control water in an extremely gentle way" (Base level 1) that is slighly or highly unnatural (+1 or +2 magnitudes), +1 Touch, +2 Ring Duration, +0 Circle Target. I'm conflicted about the level of unnaturalness: I'd probably go for slightly unnatural if the water behaved like a very big droplet (so no column, but a blob that can roll around, splinter etc.), and highly unnatural for a rigid, perfect column.

An alternative to Rego would be Muto, to give water the desired property. This is one magnitude higher than the Rego effect (Base level 3 if you rule it's slightly unnatural, Base level 4 if you rule it's highly unnatural), so it's probably not worth it unless your character is much better at Muto.

The best Creo effect is probably to one that fills a cup or bucket or other container within the Circle -- a container that you then remove, leaving the water in place. This is Level 5 (Fill a container with water Base level 2, +1 Touch, +2 Ring Duration, +0 Circle Target).

Why? Its 2 low level effects that can easily be combined into a single spell.

That wont work. Cant have Circle target with Creo as the main effect. Also, for Ring duration to work the container itself would have to use the same Ring as the other spell, and that wont work either.

Having the water be natural offers some extra manipulation options that unnatural water would not provide. And viceversa, so having the water be "moddable" depending on what you are using it for, is a bonus that a single spell would not give you. I would say it is pretty neat. You can spont either case (one or 2 spells), so no biggie in any case.


True, the flexibility is a bonus. However i would be careful about sponting it unless doing it without fatigue.
If its something the magi does relatively often, i expect the risk of botching to be too high(eventually...).

Well you could just use target individual instead of circle. Hold the cup inside the ring while you cast the spell, pour out the water, and then have the Target/target debate to see if the water still exists after you pull move the cup over the ringt. Or you could create the spell just one level higher and just create water outside the container to skip the debate.

As far as hanging multiple spells on a premade ring I've never heard a rule against it.