Comments about Canon

If by "careful" you mean "consult the forum first", I think you're out of luck. If by "careful" you mean "don't change anything", I think you're out of luck. And if by "careful" you mean "only make changes that I'd like", then again I think you're out of luck.

As different authors get the opportunity to work on some of the big supporting pillars of the game (Houses, Tribunals, Realms, etc) then they deserve the freedom to explore those subjects fully and put their stamp on the game. The playtest process, as with any game, acts as a moderating influence, as does the direct input of others working on the book(s) and chiefly David Chart in his role as line editor.

If you find that you don't like a given bit of canon, if you find that you prefer something that you read 10 years ago in a former edition, then feel free to go with bookshelf over canon in your game. Does that mean you might need to discuss with your troupe? Sure; fall back on the "contract of play" idea. But put things in perspective. Each edition is a reboot. For a long time I've wanted the official start date of 1220 to roll forward with subsequent editions. That was my way of explaining changes in characters and covenants. But that was based on a false assumption. The fifth edition isn't an extension of fourth or of the third, it is its own game.

If I ever get the chance to write for one of those supporting pillars of the game (I won't, but if I did), I don't want to simply be rearranging the words used in a previous edition. I'd want to change the things I thought didn't work and I'd want to introduce the things that I thought were missing. And I'd want the paying followers of the game to get new content.

I'll just chime in to ask: why is Roto any more "historically impossible" then Poena?
I mean, Roto is a very reasonable name for a character from the 12th/13th century Italian or Iberian peninsulas.
Poena, on the other hand, just means penance/suffering/punishment in Latin, and it's a far more unlikely proper name.

Now, I certainly concede that Ars Magica has a long and unfortunate tradition of Magi with silly names. Just to quote some examples from GoTF we have "Gadfly" (an annoying Quaesitor), "Heavy" (the fat Bonisagus of Irencillia), "Lier" (an evil, scheming Jerbiton - with a name like that, he really needs Guile 7 to fool anyone...), and the feminization of "Wineflask" (for the prima of Merinita, which we can then implicitly understand is a merry drinker). So calling someone "Suffering" not only follows canon, but tells you the character probably had a traumatic apprenticeship... or inflicted it upon her parens, whining continuously about harassment, gender discrimination and the glass ceiling for magae :slight_smile:

In what sense is it a very reasonable name? I can't find a period document with anyone named Roto.

In the sense that it has the right "sound" to it, and a number of possible, very reasonable ethimologies. "Unique" names were much more common in the middle ages, especially in southern Europe, where Latin was devolving (mixing with Germanic languages in the process) into the "vulgar" languages that would eventually become French, Spanish, Italian etc. For example, can you find anyone from the period named Ezzelino, except for the son in law of Frederick II Hohenstaufen and his own father and grandfather ? [EDIT: ah, and his nephew :slight_smile:]

LOL!!

Didn't know (or hadn't paid much attention) to those GotF names. Makes "silly names" discussion quite moot to me :laughing:

Cheers,
Xavi

There is at least one medieval source that speaks of Bertha de Roto (see Reich, T. (2000): Herrschaftsbildung und Herrschaftskräfte auf dem Gebiet des Altlandkreises Illertissen).
Or, maybe he was named after a place (German -rot/-rod/-reut/-reute is typical of Medieval place names in regions not settled by the Alemmannians or Franconians. It stands for deforestated)
Oh, and there was Graf Alfons de Roto, alive in 1209.
Using place names for people was not that uncommon.

So if Timothy doesn't find any Roto, he obviously didn't look hard enough.

I've always disagreed with the replacement of Roto with Poena, and thought that the idea of a storyseed where Poena wants to replace Roto (an ineffectual primus) is a far better idea to introduce Judi Dench into House Tremere than just plonking her in the top spot (knowing full well that it's very stereotypical). I do like the idea of Judi Dench being the primus though... first I've heard of it.

So, you think that "(German) deforested (place)" is the name a Tremere magus would give to his apprentice? Also, you haven't found it as a personal name, and Roto's name ion canon was just Roto, not "X of Roto".

I'm sorry, but Hermetic names are not random. They say something about the person giving the name. Sure, in 3rd edition, of one the magi is called "Donald the Duck of Bjornaer", carefully hidden in Latin, but you people all get so damn serious about canon! You can't demand it be treated as sacred and then get annoyed when people say "Sorry, time to treat is eeriously and get rid of the random rubbish that's been thrown in."

So, just to be clear here, I didn't look hard enough because I, using the text recovery technology available in 2004, did not find just two references, written in German, to two people with the place name Roto apprended to their names?

Jeepers, you don't want much, do you JeanMichelle?

"Here, my son. I grant you a name unsullied by history; go and forge a new path."
"Names have meaning; meaning has sympathy with magic. Take a name which does not allow others any chance to wound you."
"No, you're not worthy of my lineage. Have some gibberish as a name, you little snot."
"Actually, Pater, I disagree with your choice of name for me. I shall choose my own and, being 19, make a dumb choice that I'm more or less stuck with."
"Sure, I can't inhereit, but I can keep a little of home in my name."
"No, it's not of latin origin. Yes, my magic is a little ... unusual. If you do not cease spreading these rumours, I will be forced to seek you out at the next new moon."
"I lost a bet."
"My brother and I each have half a name."

Frankly, if a magus can call himself "He was blind", he can call himself, "I rotate" with impunity.

The fact that you didn't like the name is, near as I can tell, about the only point you've succeeded in making.

I understand, but if anyone thinks that this will silence my complains or the griping of others, then I think you're out of luck.
:laughing:
What I actually mean is to consider the proposed change, contemplate if it adds more than detracts, consider how the change may impact those who are used to (and maybe prefer) the original, and think of a way to honor the past.
For example, the House Tytalus write up didn't change a single thing, it only added to what existed and clarified it. House Tremere has several changes, but rather than ignoring the vampire connection, the landmark was kept by redefining what a vampire is.
Landmark are important. For example, you can retcon Batman, tell alternate stories of his childhood after the murder of his parents, create new friends and side characters. But you have to keep the batcave, You can change what the batcave is, as they did in the recent movies, but it is a landmark and cannot be easily dispensed with. Alfred and Jim Gordon are other landmarks. You can alter their history, make Alfred fat instead of skinny, create different reasons why Gordon is the incorruptible pillar of the Gotham police, but if you don't use these landmarks, you have taken away from the essence of the character and demonstrated flagrant disregard for the fans.
Which is not to say that anything in Ars Magica is a classic piece of American culture to the extent of Batman. Everyone knows who he is, very few people know who Flambeau or Tremere is (though Tremere is probably better known amongst gaming circles because of White Wolf games).
What I am saying is that you can easily rearrange and reinterpret a character as long as you keep the major landmarks intact, as a sign of respect to those who were fans before the change was made. Another example, in the Hulk movie, the transformation was caused by a medical experiment rather than a gamma bomb. But at the moment Bruce Banner was affected, the camera closed in on his eyes which displayed a reflection of a nuclear mushroom cloud. Comic fans watching the movie knew exactly what this meant, the landmark was kept as something symbolic.

In sagas I run, I keep Roto on as the former Primus who has just retired.
I do like the idea of a Judi Dench type-character being a magus, though she fits the Murion of Bonisagus archetype better than a Tremere (look at the picture of Murion from GotF, they are nearly identical!). But the excuse of the need for Gender Equity in the Order just sounds like Feminism. I am not sexist (at least I try not to be), but this sort of "affirmative action" is simply annoying.

Having said all of that, Roto/Poena is not at all important to me. It is just the best example I can think of (without hammering on Flambeau) of arbitrary changes that really have no reason or cause other than personal preferance of the author.
So Timothy, I apologize for picking on you. I am just trying to avoid picking on Andrew :smiley:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
That's true, I had completely forgotten about Erat Caecus...
Is he still around in 5th Edition?

According from what I have gathered from this conversation, nothing from past publications exists in "official" ArM5 unless it has been specifically reprinted. This is part of the reason I find "new cannon" so annoying.
Having said that though, I have used Erat in my own 5th edition saga :slight_smile:

He's long dead in mine - I use him as an in-character example to help people get a feel for things. He's a legend for my magi, but a respected one.

I think I sent a plot by our beta SG downhill once by turning him into a duck (permanent, un-dispellable for Year duration) when trying to cast a friendly cloak of duck feathers on him under the doorstep of a church. We became much more respectful of the power of the Dominion, but the "imminent danger OF DOOM to you and all the order" plot was quite sidetracked by that event....

The duck attacked me (Ardeus) insistently and with an extreme level of anger. I think he managed to down me to bruised.

Xavi