Companion XP should be increased

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel that 15XP per year limits a companion character? After all, most companions are supported by the covenant, and would have "special favour" amongst the standard grogs. Therefore they would have access to the library, be able to make use of teachers etc. It is in the magi's interests for the companion to be as educated and experienced as possible.

Boys A and B are twin brothers, both have the same stats, A has the Gift.
A does 5 years childhood, 5 years training as a leatherworker, then gets apprenticed to a mage.
B does 5 years childhood, 5 years exploring the local woods, then gets sent off to be educated.
All well and good.

Over the next 15 years A gets 240 XP worth of training in both magic & abilites. (Spending 6 or 7 seasons assisting in the lab for exposure XP)

Over the next 15 years B gets 225 XP worth of training, first in a school, then in a university, spends a few seasons travelling from one place to another, and spends some time learning to fight.

A & B meet up again, B has better abilities than A, because A learned 120 points of arts.

Then A & B go to a covenant, or retire to the woods or anywhere. After fulfilling their obligations to the covenant, A gains 30XP per year, B gains 15 XP per year.

A can put 15 XP per year into abilities, 15 into arts, and while they will never be a great magus, they would be as good at mundane things as B who is putting all their XP into abilities.

I don't like this scenario, it means that companions are worth less, because a magus, especially if they are Gentle Gifted, can outperform a companion in regular situations.

My suggestion is that companions receive more XP per year - after a certain age. Perhaps they should be classed as Wealthy and get 20 XP per year, perhaps they should be like magi and get 30XP per year.

I would say that from the age of 20 onwards (15 years after childhood), when their bodies and minds reach full maturity, companions get increased XP. After all, if the companion is not supernatural they will have normal longevity, even with a ritual they are unlikely to see more than 100 years. Not to mention the mortality rate of characters (lol).

Magus A lives about 100 years would accumulate :
45 - 5 years childhood
45 - 5 years before apprentice
240 - 15 years apprenticeship
2400 - 80 years life (no - labwork)

Companion B lives about 100 years would accumulate :
45 - 5 years childhood
45 - 5 years before schooling
150 - 10 years before adulthood (full maturity)
1600 - 80 years life (20XP per year)
2000 - 80 years life (25XP per year)
2400 - 80 years life (30XP per year)

If you look at the ability costs, 30XP per year would get you level 10 in an ability in 10 years, 25Xp would get you level 10 in 11 years - if you exclude everything else you would need to learn in those years. The languages, area lores, survival skills, folk-ken, intrigue etc.
If you spread the XP among various areas, by the time you are 60 years old you would have 8s and 9s in a few abilities, 4s and 5s in others. You would be superior to the average person in all but their field of speciality.

2

15xp per year is for character gen, after character gen you should use the normal system.

For older generated characters I think that something equivalent to the social status virtue of wealthy would be appropriate for a favored companion who is supported by a covenant. It would resolve your issues and not involve retooling the system at all.

3

The problem was with character generation, of course a character role-played would have higher stats.

So, 1 vote for Wealthy (if they are in a covenant)

Any more comments by anyone?

4

Personally I don't see there's a problem. But if you do, then float the idea with your troupe and take it from there. It's house-rule territory as far as I'm concerned as the character generation rules are, for me, plenty generous enough.

5

I think the rules are generally right.
xp after apprenticeship is a tool to make aged characters quickly. You can work out a very detailed one if you have too much time. Or calculate all the seasonal activities.

Btw I found the 30 xp a bit few. A magus is able to learn from books very quickly, especially at lower levels. And 2 warping points are too much.

6

My magus now has an apprentice, who should get 240 xp in 15 years, let's calculate that:

I have to teach her 1 season, she assists me 2 seasons and she has a season off for learning.
24 Teaching (specialised lecture room, good teacher etc.)
4 Lab assistance
10 Books and stuff
----------------------- +
38
38 * 15 = 570 xp
Of course there is some time for spell research, but with lab texts that only adds up extra fast.

She will learn a lot faster than your average 240 (+120 spell levels) quick-history magus, but that's because she is played out and searches for good learning opportunities.
My apprentice will probably take the skilled parens virtue, but still: a played out character gets more xp than others. A played out companion should get more than 15 xp per year.

7

The problem is specifically for generating an older character. She is entering the saga at age 24, and I felt that having 285XP (19yrs of 15XP) was too little. 380XP (Wealthy) is a little better, add in educated and she is a little more useful. But that is 4 of her virtue slots taken - especially when non-hermetic/non-supernatural flaws are a little hard to use.

8

I too would support granting companions that live in covenants the Wealthy virtue, for 20 XP per year. And still pre-generated characters would be worse off than ones that were played to that age.

9

Paris Sophia:
Thanks, your infos were very helpful. I always tought starting magi are underpowered but I have never seen an example from real game.
When I calculate with 12 xp from teaching, 10xp from books (15 but assuming 5 season will spend for spells) and 4 xp exposure it makes 26 xp/year.
390 in the whole apprenticeship.

I assume the authors calculated with 3 season exposure and 1 teaching. 6+10=16, 16*15=240.
They wanted to reduce their power. But I cannot imagine a magus who don't learn from books during this 15 years.

So If I ever SG ArM I will give 400 xp OR I will reduce the time of apprenticeship to 10 years. Or some mixed solution e.g. 12 years (this number is so "magical" :slight_smile:) and 320 xp. I think +80 xp makes the character generation more comfortable and the apprentice is able to learn that level 1-2 skills he should need to be a standard magus. There are points for area lore etc.

Btw why do you train an apprentice?

10

A sort of just-companion I played didn't receive that much xp by the way.
He was the knight who trained the village garrison.

5 xp winter grog training (usually in leadership)
6 xp exposure / adventure in spring and summer
5 xp autumn personal training (single or great weapon)
------------------+
16 xp

This is a man with a good position in the covenant, access to money, but still a regular job. Those people simply learn less than real students.

Fisher / archer grog:
5 xp winter grog training (bows)
6 xp exposure spring, summer and autumn (fishing, boating, etc.)
-------------------+
11 xp -> this is somebody with the poor flaw, like many villagers have.

It really depends on how you want to fill in your character: learning stuff from books and teachers is what gets you loads of xp.
I do think that there should be a training period in the life of a craftsman. When he is student to a master blacksmith he will gain 20-25 xp per year I reckon.
So perhaps an apprentice (300 xp in 15 years) period for non-magi would be in order also. After that, it either the wealthy virtue or you're back to 15 xp.

11

This was one of the reasons behind my virtue for a dedicated upbringing. You undergo 15 years of training at 25Xp per year to reflect the people teaching you these skills. Magi get this for free, but a craftsman would be expected to repay this in some way.

12

Hmmm perhaps you should rename your virtue "Commissioned" or "Patron" (compliment to a magus character's "Mentor") which would give the "dedicated upbringing" concept a proper historical context whilst equally justifying the causation behind the greater privelege, better training, access to more prevalent resources and the outlet for the virtue-holder's indebtedness.

Since one can (albeit for the greater part in a anachronistic sense) call to mind wealthy noble sponsorship of a variety of Artisanal masters from this period through to the Renaissance. Just say the craftsman showed sufficient skill or promise to warrant the backing of someone of means and wealth.

Make a Major option as well as a Minor and you can add that the association with wealth ensures a comfortable income from a readymade source. Minor if the craftsman is to set up shop for a more independent career.

There is also then the possibility (if taken as a Major Virtue) that, should the player so opt to play it as such, the perfect counterbalance could be the Enemies flaw if the character either skips out on the debt or sells his/her services to a rival person or faction (or one from another (rival) city than the one trained in) of his previous patron.

All sort of possible permutations that way.

13

As far as I can recall the virtue Mentor has little to do with XP, just someone who gives slight aid occasionally, and perhaps needs assistance now and then.
But other than that, it is a nice alteration. I initially had in mind the sort of guild apprenticeship, someone being groomed or a senior position etc. But a wealthy patron works as well.

Hmm, wouldn't the set-up shop be more of a major, as there is story material in getting permission to setup shop, arranging premises etc.?

Oh yes, rivalry and jealousy were going to factor in there somewhere. :smiling_imp:

14

Where in the above quote do you see anything that regards xp? This is an odd reply. My comment regards historical/contextual justification for a particular name for your virtue and way of making it work in the setting.

A patron could just as well be a wealthy guild or even guild leader, it doesn't HAVE to be a singular noble or merchant prince per se.

Not necessarily although it could be if you considered it a story Virtue rather than a a general virtue. My thought was that this virtue idea of yours could have various permutations, (Major/Minor Story or Major Minor General; written as Major, Minor, Story, General so players could pick the permutation that fits best without falling afoul of the char gen limitations).

My further thought was that it would be Minor since setting up shop would nullify the readymade income that would come if it were taken as a Major with a fixed stipend for the commissioned servitude (think Mozart, however anachronistic that analogy happens to be).

Like I said, lots of ways to play this (and any particular nicely corresponding Flaws) depending on the way one takes this Virtue.