Confidence and Experience Point Bonuses

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

In any system I run, I like to award some bonuses to the players, to encourage the at-table and in-game actions that I would like to see. Of course, in most games this is done primarily through some form of experience points.

For example, early versions of DnD gave xp based on treasure. This unfortunately led players to look at the world as one big exercise in looting, but on the positive side, players often came up with creative ways to bypass whatever was guarding that treasure. Story awards were created to give rewards for other things besides looting, but usually paled in comparison to the xp from treasure. Later editions tended to give experience primarily for defeating monsters. Players had less incentive to be creative, and more reason to charge in swinging.

I've already acquainted my troupe with this fabulous aspect of Ars Magica, that xp comes from activities done for a season, and that book learning and training are much better ways to advance than adventuring, which is something you do because you have a compelling motivation for doing something other than study and training.

Beyond the xp for killing, looting, and completing stories, most games give some sort of bonuses. In Ars Magica this is confidence points.

I thought about what I have given bonuses for in other systems, and came up with a list of 10 behaviors that I like to encourage in my players

https://docs.google.com/document/d/140vQ7BOanQHweERj127WRHU-K9pb8pB1KelJ90iY4J0/edit

I've informed them that they can earn up to 10 pts per session, one for each item on the list. If they have 11+ confidence, they can exchange 10 confidence for 1xp. This "confidence pool" will carry with them, the player, whether they are playing their grog, magus, or companion, and while grogs can't use confidence in the standard way, the xp bonus can be applied to any character under the player's control, including grogs.

Given that some sessions will cover years of lab and study time, I don't think this will unbalance too much. When I'm running adventure seasons, they could go 4 sessions in a season, and thus get up to 4 bonus xp, but that extreme would be unlikely, and since adventure xp can be 5-10, if I dispense up to 6, I'll still be within standard ranges. And I've warned my players that if problems crop up, both xp and confidence awards might be scaled back later.

Thoughts, suggestions, etc? How generous/stingy are you with xp and confidence points?

2

I've always thought Confidence is way too hard to raise. Compare it to True Faith points, which are easier to raise, can be raised by items, and come back daily. Don't give them exp's, which are easy to get in Ars Magica, let them actually raise their Confidence, as opposed to the current system, which seems to see it as a reward at the end of a campaign....

3

Perhaps they could raise their characters' confidence as an art or ability using these points? I'll have to think about that. 5-10 pts per player per session, but spread amongst three characters (each of three players has a magi, companion, and grog, and, with the exception of pooled grogs, will play them one per session) might not get too absurd if I do it as an ability.

4

Seems a little fast for me, but you know your game better then I. It certainly gives even the labrats a reason to adventure, so looking good!

5

IMHO it seems excessive to allow players to accumulate 10 confidence per game session. Mind you it depends on the length of the session and it also seems less of a problem if that is for all characters played, not per individual.

In my sagas we tend to give 0-3 confidence per session of 3-4 hours, and rarely more even if we play for 6 hours.
We give for getting things done, achieving the general goal or at least playing along. Then also for personal, individual goals (like finishing a great project, rising in ranks of an organization, initiating a mystery). And for getting involved in challenges and drama necessitated by Personality Traits, obligations or character concept. So playing in a Rhine saga I'd say that networking in your Gild may pay off in confidence.

Usually this is awarded by the SG, but I actually think it should be awarded by the Troupe in cooperation. Although this may showcase the less extrovert players who may be judged to have earned less. Sure, if the SG secretly awards things the result is mathematically the same, but less visible.

In earlier days we tended to foreget confidence. people were loath to spend them because it was forgotten to award new ones. And none were awarded because the concept was not very visible, because nobody used them. We changed that.
The previous editions had a mechanism for 'regaining' spent confidence, it was easier that way but also very poor in regarde of motivating players to be active with their characters. You just spend and wait. Now you have to work for it.

I think a couple of Conf is invaluable to keep on hand for a troubled day. Because of the mechanics where you spend after you know how bad things go confidence can really save the day. My best use was a Twillight I just came positively trhough at the use of a confidence point. Hello new virtue!

6

I have considered using a mechanic stolen from WHFRP, where you refresh your confidence points each session. That would let you keep the score (how much you can spend at once) and points (how many you have each session) and I could keep my well cemented "confidence is hard to gain and lose" reflexes.

The alternative is to be better at rewarding them so the players actually use them. From experience in other games I think that some sort of limit to how many points can be held is also a good help in getting them used. If they can just be hoarded infinitely many players tend to do that. :confused:

7

If they do that, the points become irrelevant anyway dont they?

8

I know 10 is a lot. That's why 10 will convert to 1 xp. But it may still be excessive, that's why I am asking all you experienced folks.

I actually don't like giving points for things like "completing a personal goal" or "role-playing well." As SG, I have a lot of control over whether and when goals are completed. The player created the character; who am I to say if they are playing it well? Look at what I give bonuses for; its pretty different from what I've seen in systems that have bonuses of some sort.

9

While I think your steps 1-4 (and partly nr 5) are things unconnected to the character - and that is who i tend to want to reward - I see the point. I've often promised bonus exp in GURPS for someone to give a good summary of the previous session.

Confidence is spent to get a success where you would otherwise have failed. So I want to reward those who go all in. And I think achieving a personal goal merits a reward. Because otherwise Confidence is something you can buy or bribe your way to, or do menial work for. Although I like it when players participate and help out.

Also I think Confidence is more valuable than Exp. You can always train or study for Exp, but Confidence is a wildcard that can help you for less tangible results than mere power through exp

10

I'm rewarding those who go all in by contributing more to the game experience than just showing up and playing their character. The things I listed in 1-5 enhance the experience for everyone (as do 6-10). And they free up my time to more efficiently develop the story, further enhancing everyone's game. So its worth rewarding.

I guess for my group, setting and meeting goals has intrinsic rewards, and tends to result in xp, wealth, character development, new allies and enemies, etc, and thus needs no further rewards.

On the other hand, spending money on books and other stuff, spending time updating an online version of the character sheet, etc, seems to happen more if I give a positive incentive. I realize it can seem like bribery, but, bah!

My players are still "in spring." They're eager for xp, so I don't see them burning it all on confidence. I have told them that this is evolving and might change, and they're ok with that; its a bonus rewards house rule after all. If they start hording 30+ confidence, I can simply force an exchange to xp, and modify the rewards.

This is all just "thinking out loud" on my part, so I hope I don't sound defensive.

I just know, there are at least 10 things I like to give rewards for, and that's way too much confidence, so I was looking for another way these points could be spent.

11

I am very much in favour of this.
I'm done similar things in other games (oWoD, Exalted and of all things Shadowrun)

Basically people could nominate eachother for an extra XP/Karma point, argue for the nomination, and if the groupe generally agree, the point was awarded.
Worked rather well as I recall.

12

Yep. I missed a sentence here. I meant to say if they could be hoarded for XP the players wouldn't use them. This has been my experience in all games using some sort of Karma/Faith/Confidence/Chips that helps actions but can be converted to XP/advancement.

So my point was totally lost. I'll try again:

In my experience you should keep a very firm division between confidence (and other types of points to boost skills, save lives etc during play) and XP. Much of the point with such points are to be spent to increase chances or control of the situation (for the players) and if they can be saved for XP you reward passive and overly careful play (which IMAO is boring).

Personally I don't use much dice so spending more than 3-4 confidence in a session is A Lot. I don't think any player have rolled 10 times in any of the 3 last session. If they then get 5-7 points a session they basically get a flat bonus to all rolls.

13

Let's do that then. It'll help bring the goals and desires of the individual character up, since the Troupe needs to know them in order to reward actions leading towards them.

14

The other thing about my list vs most of them in various RPGs I've read is that I've tried to focus on fairly objective stuff. Most games have a list of bonuses that are more subjective.

Its enough work as SG (in any system) trying to fairly interpret the rules and deal with rules lawyers without also trying to have to act as "skating judge" as well - it makes me feel like the judges holding the numbered placards in the Olympics.

I don't want to have to argue with or insult my players, an almost innevitable result when I'm giving scores to their role-playing performance.

PS - Oh, and those of you who are staff writers should like that I'm giving my players points for buying their own copies of books instead of relying on mine :wink:

15

Based on the feedback I've gotten so far, I think I'm going to (mostly) stick with my (up to) 10 pts per session plan. Since RAW maxes confidence per session at 3, the first (up to) 3 pts awarded will be confidence. Excess points will accumulate as 1/10 xp. These xp can be spent (more or less) freely (not to be abused with implausible uses) or can be used to raise confidence.

In this game, some sessions will cover 1 to 4 seasons, some will be adventures that run for 1 to 4 sessions, and there will be a few between-session jumps of 1-5 years. We try to meet every two weeks. If the game runs a year, I expect we'll get 20 sessions. Rough estimate, say 5 adventure seasons, averaging 3 sessions, so 15 sessions and 5 "downtime" sessions taking up 3 seasons average, 15 seasons. That's only 20 seasons, 4 years, that I can hope the campaign will last.

16

Hmm, so if a player really outdoes himself and gets 10 points, that is 3 Confidence and then 7/10 exp? That's not too much, won't unbalance anything. I'd personally be willing to use a much lower divisor than 10, say 5 or even 3! Otherwise there really isn't much bonus.

17

I was thinking 1/10 xp might be too low, but its always politically easier with a troupe to scale-up than scale-down rewards if they prove to be incorrectly valued.

I was thinking that being able to use these xp to raise confidence might just make them valuable enough. I was also thinking that they might be able to raise confidence as an art rather than ability, but decided that was probably too much.

I just liked the "using bonus points to raise confidence idea" that was proposed, so I've been trying to work that into my concept without making it the only possible use.

18

Another use of rewarding player rather than character actions: this week's session was character building and campaign direction discussion, not plot advancement. With my points system, I'm still able to reward players for good behavior prior to and during the session.