Containers, Spell Types, and Circles

Agreed. I think it's an interesting puzzle to figure out a very special case in which a type 1 Ring would be the better choice.
I guess that ... if you have a very devious apprentice, want to confine him into some area for, say, a season while you are travelling, you can "hold" him in a D:Ring effect and if it's of type I ... when you come back you'll probably know if he has managed to leave the Ring and return: by the fact that he's no longer affected by it. I'm sure someone can come up with something nicer!

A few observations, moving towards a conclusion.

First, the existence of a published spell using a Type I Circle means that Type I Circles are definitely possible. Errata that create errors in published material should be avoided as far as possible.

Second, the published spell and consistency both tell in favour of not ending the spell when the circle is broken.

Third, the current rules do say that Circle target spells end when the circle is broken.

Fourth, there are good examples of weird looking practices on both sides, and strong feelings on both sides.

Finally, leaving it vague is not an option. The general clarification on container targets means that Circles either must be explicitly carved out as an exception, or the spell will persist even if the circle is broken.

My assessment is that both sides have good arguments, but that they are balanced. I think I may have to simply make a call on this, because I think the benefits of increased clarity for all the other cases are worth it.

I have not yet decided how to call it.


Meh, it's from MoH - more bugs there than in your average apiary :wink:

Probably not going to be possible though.

PS: I still think the idea of the type I circle should be destroyed.

Who d'you think you are, Cicero?

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Hey, it worked for him! :wink:
But thank you for recognizing the quote. Now, please consider the eventual fate of Carthage. It works for type I circles as well. :wink:

PS: I still think the idea of the type I circle should be destroyed.





Three years after Cato's death, Carthage was indeed eventually destroyed.
Tellus is telling us he's ok with the change not occurring in his lifetime, as long as it eventually does occur :slight_smile:

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I'd just like to say I love the idea of type one and type two circles, and will be houseruling them in if they don't make it to the errata.


I'm okay with what goes in the errata.

Tellus didn't take the bait, alas.

And the eventual fate of Rome…

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Which spell is that?

Retreat as Flying Vermin, HoH p.13: transforms those inside the circle into bats; "designed to be
used as a spell that would allow [the caster's] grogs to rapidly retreat from danger" it's certainly type I (i.e. persists after the target leave the circle) and was probably designed with the idea that the effect does not vanish when the Circle is erased, or everyone would plop to the ground.

I would also add that this spell and similar MuCo(An) spells in the same chapter seem to use the "material component" in a way that's not quite that intended by the rules in ArM5 p.132 "Certain shapechanging spells allow the target to change back by concentrating. While concentrating, you symbolically remove some item to break the spell, such as a wolfskin cloak or some water in your hands. These foci are essential if you are to be able to break the spell in this way. If you cast the spell without them, you must either dispel the magic with Perdo Vim, or wait for the duration to expire."

In this case, Alexander has "a piece of bat leather in a small bag of trinkets he always carries, to use as a physical prop if this spell is cast." ... but can it be used to cancel a T:Circle spell? And even for T:Ind spells, such as the one transforming the target into a crocodile "Alexander has a crocodile skin dagger scabbard, which he uses to cancel the spell at will." ... I mean, it seems to me that the idea is not using an arbitrary piece of what you change into, but something that "cloaks" you in the shape of that being or thing, so that by removing it, you "unveil" yourself. The symbolism of a crocodile-skin dagger scabbard is rather weak, in my opinion (though it would be perfect for transforming animated daggers into crocodiles).


...okay, now I want to play a Muto specialist just to do this :joy:

What is the final conclusion about Rooms and Circles- if there is any? :smiley:

You will have to scroll down a bit.