Your own experience and preference is personal to you on the matter. However, this doesn’t support the notion that combat is rare (or qualitatively weak) in the game as it really depends on the group.
Your own experience and preference is personal to you on the matter. However, this doesn’t support the notion that combat is anything but rare (or qualitatively weak) in the game as it really depends on the group.
I think you've hit the point.
I believe this is important. Our fiction and games often present violence as the only way to solve problems. Ars Magica has other ways, and this is great, this is the kind of games I want kids to grow on (hopepunk vibes here)
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But that's essentially true for any game (possibly barring That Other Game and it's spawn), and cuts both ways. In my experience, with multiple troupes (admittedly with some overlap, - myself in particular), Ars Magica tend to be less focused on combat than many other games. Especially 'Fantasy' games. If your sagas are heavy on combat, that's presumably because you/your troupe enjoys this. Enjoy. But please don't blindly assume that this is true for all troupes, just as I don't assume that our (usually often) low levels are the norm.
You are the one making the assertions and assumptions about Ars Magica being low on combat. It isn’t any more than any other fantasy rpg. There are full and involving rules for combat in Ars Magica and plenty of opportunities to use it in your sagas.
I would emphasize:
Magic System: Invent any spell, within well-defined and evocative rules, brimming with medival-like philosophy and fantastic magic theory.
Actually Play A Wizard: Not just spells - you get to do all the things wizards do - and now they make sense in-game. The game system actively pushes you to do devise wizardly plans and goals, invented and created by you and your SG for your character and his own particular goals. From finding and teaching an apprentice, through studying long years from dusty tomes in your tower, to being initiated into secret mysttical cults or acquiring the dragon's blood needed for your longevity ritual.
Mythic Europe: Emphasize the benefits of having all of history as your play-thing, with all the already-existing familiarity with the setting, the emotional connection to parts of it, and the fun of exploring real-world history and myth; yet also that you are playing in a Mythic version of Europe, so have all the fun of standard fantasy, embedded within the familiarity and emotional impact of playing in the real world. Don't settle for copies of fantasy versions of Europe with the serial numbers filed off, come play in REAL Europe - with all that chunky fantasy goodness added in.
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I can't believe I missed this element in my own response - you've perfectly summed up what first drew me to Ars Magica. In many ways the magic system is just the secret ingredient that makes all this work.
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Did you read my entire post? I'll be the first to admit it's not formatted for easy of reading.
My apologies for that.
But please do not mix with up up with @Jank - he doesn't deserve that.
However, his experiences do appear to match mine.
And in fact, these are some of the best rules for combat in any currently available TTRPG, as far as I'm concerned. But that's just gravy. There are so many other tools to solve (most of) your problems, short of a full scale mongol invasion.
But more importantly, unlike That Other Game, the reward mechanisms of Ars Magica do not favour combat. In fact, recovering from wounds take a long time or extract a heavy cost in vis, and so it could well be argued that combat is actively disincentivized.
Or you could just note that there is no chapter in the book named 'Combat'. Rather, it is covered as part of a chapter named 'Obstacles', fairly late in the book. Which I believe was a very deliberate choice.
You certainly can fight in Ars Magica - and as mentioned, I happen to really like the mechanics, with combat advantage directly affecting damage - but you're less incentivized to do so, compared to some games, eg. That Other Game.
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Well, actually I have more of an issue when you assert that I am “blindly” assuming anything about any Troupe when I am literally arguing the opposite. Some Troupes will want to include plenty of combat in their Sagas and there is nothing in the game that is designed to suppress this.
The combat can be deadly, but that is authentic and dramatic in the same sense it is in Pendragon. If you want to play knights or warriors of any sort, you can. If you want to play a combat orientated wizard, you can. If you want mass combat rules, the game has them too.
Yes, there are other aspects of the game for problem solving, investigation, politics and general creativity but it isn’t a game that goes out of its way to downplay violence especially. Your wizard may be happen to be a pacifist, but my Flambeau wizard has a Pilum of Fire to say otherwise...
I don't believe I ever did. Though you did come across somewhat strongly as advocating that:
Now..
Certainly! And may they enjoy it too!
Suppress? Perhaps not. No "combat is wrong-bad fun". However, as has already been mentioned:
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Aside from what has been suggested above, I would advise you to show on the video parts of the new rulebook to steer up the hype. It would be great for old time gamers to see how Ars Magica has been improved. Whats were the great compalints people had? show them how you addressed those problems. I for one would love to see a more visually guided, better designed rules access. for example, show us some tables on character creation, covenant creation, combat summary chart and so on. give players a taste of whats great about the game, but also whats new to this edition.
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If you are just trying to argue with me, then maybe we should just finish this now?
My point, clearly stated, is simply that Ars Magica doesn’t de-emphasise combat. It is merely a choice that different Troupes may take, as is the case in other games. There isn’t anything I have said that suggests how Troupes should play the game. I am responding to posters who are claiming there is.
The point you raise about the ‘reward’ system is somewhat irrelevant because Ars Magica itself isn’t predicated on the notion of having a ‘reward system’ built into the game. You can improve aspects of your characters' skill sets to a degree, but characters don’t ‘level up’ as a goal particularly. Characters come in different tiers of power from the offset and different characters have different goals in play. The overarching driver of game play is telling a compelling story, not being mechanically rewarded for any given activity in general play.
Wizards improve through laboratory work mainly - which is simulationary rather than a game-reward driver. Not every wizard needs to work in the lab and not every character is a wizard. Other characters may want to go out and fight for a cause - because of the stories they want to tell.
The fact that the game is organised enough to incorporate physical combat into a broader chapter is no different to other games that do the same. However, the combat system is still an important inclusion in this chapter - it is a superficial point being made here.
If you're going to draw your wands, please step out of the aegis, no pilum of fires will be tolerated in this covenant, sodales. Certamen is an alternative, I suppose, but just bear in mind that it's meant to solve magical disputes, not mere arguments.
I would not classify the Ars Magica combat system (with or without 'Lords of Men') as all that noteworthy or great. Not saying it is bad, just rather middle of the road. There are many systems out there with much better individual and/or group combat rules. But the big difference is that systems with great combat rules are mostly focused on combat. Ars Magica is focused on wizards, wizard society, a unique setting, troupe play, and its great magic system.
I would not say that Ars Magica actively discourages combat. It does however discourage taking damage. It has very slow natural healing and very expensive magical healing compared to other systems. There is a difference between the two. All systems that discourage taking damage tend to lead to combat being a
more brutal and planned affair, focused on killing the other side as quickly and with little risk as possible.
For those wondering, I consider The Riddle of Steel (especially with The Flower of Battle expansion) to have the best individual combat rules. It was designed by people high up in HEMA and that shows. But its group combat bogs down and its magic system is pretty bad. Actually horrid in opinion.
You also have systems like Runequest which have a good combat system and a high focus on magic. In my opinion, a better combat system than found in Ars Magica while its magic system is both well rounded and well integrated into the world, but not even in the same class.
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This seems to be splitting hairs. A system with deadly results from unlucky dice rolls and slow healing, supports avoiding combat where possible. Rolemaster and Ars Majica are examples of this.
Compare D&D and Pathfinder where the day after getting a critical hit from a Storm Giant, the hero is at full health.
If you have lots of combat in AM, good for you. I, and I think most players, consider it uncommon. Unless your regularly fights are incredibly unmatched fights, having regular fights results in crippled and occasionally dead grogs and companions.
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f you're going to draw your wands, please step out of the aegis,
Oh, please...
This seems to be splitting hairs. A system with deadly results from unlucky dice rolls and slow healing, supports avoiding combat where possible. Rolemaster and Ars Majica are examples of this.
Compare D&D and Pathfinder where the day after getting a critical hit from a Storm Giant, the hero is at full health.
If you have lots of combat in AM, good for you. I, and I think most players, consider it uncommon. Unless your regularly fights are incredibly unmatched fights, having regular fights results in crippled and occasionally dead grogs and companions.
Well, no. This is conflating authenticity with the notion of discouragement. Pendragon is a game that has deadly combat but is still thematically driven by playing Knights who are largely defined by the fact that they get into lots of combat. Ars Magica can have the same themes if you want. It doesn’t discourage combat.
Yes. Please.
The opinions have been laid out, there's nothing constructive to add.
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Why are you adding to it then?
Ars Magica's advancement system is my favorite of any game ever. Having advancement mostly separated from things outside of the setting makes it ring really true. It gives you advancement constraints only based on in game criteria. Anyone can learn crazy Hibernian fighting techniques, but they have to find someone who knows them and then convince that person to spend months teaching these techniques. which brings me to sort of a second thing I think might be emphasized...
Ars Magica chooses when to be abstract and when not to be in somewhat different areas then other (i.e. worse) games. That "finding a teacher" bit in my last paragraph is not just some flavor for the storyguide to sprinkle on to the game, it's the core of what the (in this case advancement) mechanics do. Similarly, finding some mythical or expensive component in order to construct an enchanted item is not some complication to be added to the core mechanic of crafting the item, it's inherent in the use of vis. You literally can't do most enchantment or ritual spells without inadvertently creating a story of harvesting mystical power. You can't cast Gentle Caress of Asclepius without using the Apples of Hesperides, the heart of giant or some other cool bit of magic. (Unless you, foolishly, abstract your vis into generic pawns.) Which leads me to a third thing that makes a great selling point...
Because the amount of abstraction in the magic and advancement systems are a bit lower than in most other games, magic characters develop magnificently. Every magus has their own goals to accomplish and challenges to meet (like in any rpg, but the setup of the covenant, story flaws, and use of troop style rotating characters tends to supply Ars Magica characters with particularly evocative sets of goals and challenges), and they also have really varied strengths and weaknesses this leads to magic characters developing in very different ways in order to leverage their own strengths and compensate for their weaknesses. My last PC had a minor magical focus in sparrows and minor magical potency in mental spaces (like mental laboratories and memory palaces). As a result, he developed magics to meet every challenge with a combination of sparrows and retreating into his own mind - and it wasn't some involved birds+ brains scheme I had plotted beforehand, it was just the natural thing to do. Characters become more themselves as advance through the years and it guided by who they are, not the options provided by the system. It's a subtle thing, but Ars has both free form advancement and the existence of real things in the setting. My Star Wars character can choose which skill trees they want to advance in. My Ars Magica character can acquire the laboratory notebooks left by Alexander of Jerbiton and rediscover all of his tools to explore the desert through transformation, also a real thing in the game but that's not fundamentally different than going his or her own way making their own spells and enchanted devices or some combination.
People say that Ars Magica is a mechanics heavy game, and that's not incorrect, but one reason that the game works so well for so many of us is that most of those heavy mechanics don't have to show up at the table. You can handle all of the deliciously detailed fiddling with magic in the laboratory and character advancement systems while you are away from the other players and come to the table armed with the cool stories they created. Apart from spellcasting, the mechanics one encounters during a session at the table are pretty light. Stat + skill + die roll versus an ease factor isn't something that's strange t most gamers or especially involved.
Ars Magica does both free form magic and spell lists and, in this, it gets fantastically evocative results that are fun and that fit one's (at least my) conceptions of what you'd like wizards to be. I've played plenty fo games with lists of magical powers (lots of editions of Shadowrun. D&D, most of the world of Darkness, and many many others) and many games that had freeform magic systems (Mage the Ascension, Genesys, and a few others). In systems with predefined spells characters tend to learn the spells that are relevant to their situations this leads to a lot of sameness between characters. Ironically, in games with entirely freeform magic characters tend to craft magic that solves their problems as efficiently as possible the magic created tends to be more reflective of the situation than of the character, also leading to a great deal of sameness between characters. An Ars Magica magi tends to have a few areas of strength and many areas of weakness. This creates a story where the characters approaches to problems are an exceedingly varied combination of weak (< level 10) spontaneous magic in areas that are not their thing, moderately powerful magic in their area of specialty and a few powerful spells that they have as formulaic magic or enchanted devices. No other game gives you this.
I could go on forever. I will try and limit myself
Ars Magica is the game of Indiana Jones style uncovering ancient mysteries leading to the invention of new and unseen magics.
Ars Magica is the game where you find an invincible foe or an unsolvable problem then you have a scheming session with your fellow wizards and you each head to your respective laboratories for half a year and come out with new magic to make that foe vincible or that problem solvable.
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