Cooperation

From the ooc story topic...

Do the 3 pawns of Rego belong to Avery or to the covenant as a whole? We haven't established any specific rule regarding the sources we find, but I had assumed that any vis we found belonged to the covenant. In which case, anything we do with it should be agreed upon by the others...

I'm not saying your plan for a flying sled isn't useful, but it may not be our first priority.

I'll accept whatever arrangement the magi come up with.

Sure - that was my recommendation for what to do with the vis, rather than an explicit statement of intent. That being said, the Sled can also perform the aforementioned "once a year, go out to the coast and have the magi ReAq up a a ton of salt, which can then be brought back and sold for ~150 or so mythic pounds." So it's also a minor income source, for a couple of day's worth of work.

However, I've played it in the past that upon discovery, the first year's collection belongs to the individual (as a reward for looking for it), while anything after that belongs to the covenant.

Sure that seems reasonable except for a few specific cases like some form of emergency, or if we find creo vis and someone needs healing for example.

Also certamen as well.

We have the standard charter, so I just looked up Covenants p.126, which states under "Resources Owned by the Covenant":

So indeed Avery would have the right to the first harvest. :slight_smile:

However, since we are all working on building the covenant and investing most of our seasons for this purpose, it might make sense (and be courteous) for Avery to discuss his plans for the vis beforehand.

Well, if the charter says it...
First time in Ars Magica 5 tat it helped with anything (rather than starting huge ooc debates about how to phrase it until no one felt like playing the game anymore)

Are we posting seasonal activities in this thread?

The seasonal activities will be pretty lame:

Seasons 1-6 Practice: Cult Lore: Enlightened Ones, that's (4+2)1.5 a season! Also known as 9.
She will also donate the six mentum vis she generates to the covenant, and cast an Aegis for free
.
Roll for the Aegis 9+14 (TeFo) + 2 AL +2 PH +3 Aura +1 Sta = 31 So that's a Pen of 11

*So the way I'm interpreting the interaction between Imbued with Spirit of Vim, and Waster of Vis is that Imbued with the Spirit of Vim is reducing the vis cost before Waster of Vis gets to come into waste any vis. So the total cost is zero, and she wastes no vis. This eats up a lot of fatigue though, and she'll be really tired for about a week. Of course, the alternate interpretation is that Waster of Vis is actually increasing the vis cost of the spell, so the reduction only brings it down to 2 vim vis. I think my interpretation makes more sense, however that said I also see an argument that flaws should cause trouble and the less favorable one should be used on general principal.

So basically, while the other magi are mostly scribing texts for the covenant, looking for vis sources, setting up labs and inventing spells to fulfill covenant needs, Elizabeth is shutting herself in her quarters for a year and a half to advance her personal goals? Only coming out to cast the Aegis?

The other magi are investing 3-4 seasons in activities that benefit the covenant over the same time span. Doesn't seem like Elizabeth is making much effort towards cooperation. :unamused:

Well, if she invents a cult and initiates you lot, you'll get virtues out of it in the long run. Plus, casting the Aegis is worth 4 pawns of vis per annum.

btw, cat'll have to roll to see if Elisabeth botches the ritual (since this is a high risk unmastered spell cast using vis - or something akin to vis).

Please put your season in development like the others. It's so easy to lose suh important information in this thread. The best plce to look it up is still the wiki, btw

Yeah, I was thinking about the equivalent of "Seasons of Service" that each magi is doing - and casting the Aegis is actually quite a lot. And while I suppose she could clarify her own spells, there aren't any Scribe levels left to copy them. As such, they probably aren't all that useful for this Tribunal's trading season.

Sure, there might be some long-term benefits to her developping that new cult. But there are some issues related to it as well.

First, will our magi be interested in joining that new cult? A cult isn't simply a collection of virtues to be learned. it is also a colleciton of traditions, rules, secrets and goals. For now, her cult of the Enlightened Ones has nothing to define it, so all we can assume is that it would be some sort of extension of her Deathless tradition. Maybe that is not the case at all. But even if that is not the case, the cult simply won't suit all the covenant's magi. In this way, it is much more a personal endeavour.

Second, even if the covenant as a whole was interested in that new cult, developping it is a long-term goal. The first few years of a covenant is about building and consolidating it so that all of the magi can pursue their individual goals. Right now, we've discussed our priorities as building up the library and finding vis sources and, to a lesser extent, increasing our covenant's capability to support our magi. Developping the cult doesn't contribute to the priorities at all.

Indeed, her casting the Aegis contributes to the covenant's well-being, by saving us some vis. Yet she is casting it with a low Penetration total, so it won't block stronger creatures (she managed a total of 11 with a die roll of 9). Yet she doesn't seem to be looking for ways to improve her total.

She's saving us 4 pawns of Vim vis per season. And taking on the risk of botching for us. It feels like it is nowhere near what the other magi are contributing at the moment.

Scribing her spells might not benefit the covenant with regards to trading at the coming Tribunal, but it would have helped build our library. Similarly, she has a decent Com score and could have scribe tractatus in the Arts or Abilities. We might not have time to make immediate copies, but having the book might be enough to arrange a trade (by promising copies as soon as they can be made) as well as enlarging our library. She also knows a spell that allow her to find vis sources. Yet she does none of that, instead concentrating on her long-term personal goal.

I am unimpressed. :stuck_out_tongue:

Do we have access to Ceremonial Casting props (as described in HoH;S, pg. 59)? The +5 room-sized ones would probably take a season to get set up, but the +4 ones could arguably be available. Using the TeFo versions of those could give you an additional +8 to the roll.

I would tend to think that we don't. They must be contructed by a skilled craftsman under the supervision of a magus and are fairly expensive, according to HoH:S.

It would be a worthwhile goal to acquire some of those, perhaps even establish a ceremonial casting room at the covenant if we learn enough spells that this becomes useful.

Its not gonna be an extension of the Deathless tradition. The deathless tradition is meant to be somewhat silly and amusing.

The concepts that would be percolating in Elizabeth's mind around the Tribunal for her Cult:

  1. Knowledge=Power
  2. Power can and should be used to make the world better.
  3. Knowledge can be replicated without losing its value, so it should be shared with responsible types. (The Order of Hermes, Her Covenant, Her Cult etc.)
  4. Anyone with the Gift can exemplify any of the above

Although she probably isn't thinking of it as a "cult" yet. I'm thinking of making Good Teacher, the first virtue that gets initiated. Then probably Book Learner.
I'm thinking of adding a few more concepts:
5) Knowledge can be used to make knowledge creation and sharing more effective. Especially this cool set of techniques I'm developing/discovering/having-forced-into-my-head!
6) UnGifted types can play important roles in supporting the Gifted types, in fact it is generally the most valuable thing they can do.

Then these concepts can all be "enforced" in the initiation scripts themselves. Expect sacrifices of time that require writing books.

I'm trying to strike a mix of enticing, idealistic, and ominous. Plus some really blatant in-group bias.

Anyway, to summarize she is being lazy, but she's also making an effective eight pawns of vis a year

Don't forget the mentum vis either!

The description of the "cult" shows some good stuff. Still, that remains a long-term goal as opposed to fulfilling short-term priorities of the covenant. From an in-character perspective, Elizabeth sure looks like she is sitting back and letting the others do the work while she is pursuing her personal goals! :wink:

Is she gifting the Mentem vis to the covenant? I just haven't seen this anywhere. This would certainly work in her favour, perception-wise.