Covenant Design Discussion

I was / would expect us to be working on the first two things you list. I am sure that there will be books we want that we don't have. And getting more vis sources clearly is important.

We have a PC grog ink maker, and do not need to spend points on that. Also there would be no benefit in the first year at least to having the parchment maker above ability 5.

Good point. I had forgotten that.

Would there be a benefit later on? Because at this point, the difference between Ability 5 and Ability 6 is one point.

Right now we have 9 "writers" In the covenant (7 magi, an apprentice and a schoolmaster), which puts the maximum benefit at 4.5 lbs of silver. If we add a scribe (likely) that brings maximum benefits to 5 lbs, adding another writer brings max benefit to 5.5 and therefor there would at that time be a benefit to having a parchment maker with an ability of 6. If recruiting new covenfolk is going to be part of our objectives than it certainly would be worth the one point, otherwise it would not be of benefit until someone introduces another character with literary capabilities and does not remove an existing one.

Personally, I wouldn't reduce the starting vis sources. I'd be fine reallocating the points saved from 3 specialists to the library.

I had suggested 10 pawns from the spring because it is, after all the main focus of the covenant. It made sense to me that this would be a sizeable source.

Searching for new vis sources is always a draw. But I think the focus will be more on expanding the library, since the covenant is dedicated to the dissimination of books.

Personally, I agree with Arthur that we shouldn't skimp on vis, and that the spring should be a large source of vis. I worked up the first alternate build mostly as a talking point.

So the second alternate build would have:

Library ([strike]274[/strike] 299 points)
[list]

  • Terram summa L23 Q12 (free from the Exceptional Book boon, on the Art that got the most votes)
    [*] Rest TBD

Vis Sources (125 points)

  • 10 pawns/year in Vim (50 points) -- exact source to be determined
  • 10 pawns/year in Aquam (50 points) -- from the spring
  • 5 pawns/year in Rego (25 points) -- from the dam of the aqueduct

Vis Stocks ([strike]2 points[/strike] 1 point)

  • [strike]10[/strike] 5 pawns of Vim vis (1 point)

Money (1 point)

  • 10 pounds of silver (1 point)

Specialists ([strike]42[/strike] 18 points)

  • 1 book binder [Skill 6] (6 points)
  • [strike]2 illuminators[/strike] 1 illuminator [Skill 6] ([strike]12[/strike] 6 points)
  • [strike]2 scribes [Skill 6] (12 points)[/strike]
  • [strike]1 ink maker [Skill 6] (6 points)[/strike]
  • 1 [strike]percamenarius[/strike] parchment maker [Skill 6] (6 points)
    [/*:m][/list:u]

That's spending 67% (or almost exactly 2/3) of our starting points on the library.

If we don't have a skilled scribe (skill 6), then any book we create will miss on 1 point of Quality. I'd rather we eliminate the parchment maker than not have a skilled scribe.

I'm not convinced that we need/want to squeeze everything just to boost the library by a few points. Aiming for 2/3 library and 1/3 for the rest is rather artificial.

Just 2 more cents from me. :laughing:

Again, I agree with Arthur. One good book might be 30ish points. That's 6 vis/year or five Ability 6 specialists. I'd rather lose the one book and get the rest.

I think at this point we need to start looking at this in terms of actual value of books rather than % of covenant points.
There are 3 books whose value is considered Paramount according to the vote: Creo (31 points), Vim (31 points), Magic Theory (35 points), 1 whose existence is paramount but whose value at higher levels is questionable(Code of Hermes), and 7 books whose need is felt but whose value is less than critical. If we consider the Code of Hermes to be lumped in with the lesser books that will give us a library value of either 297 (258+97) , 305 (268+97), or 313 (27*8+97). 25 is considered the upper level of vain summae, 28 the lower end of sound, so aside from the 25 point level these will all put us in a no mans land of book value (vain summae are worth 1/2 what sound summae are worth)
If we drop to only using books with 3 votes instead of those with 2 as well, this drops the book count by 3, and we can have more points and higher quality books, but so far the view that we should do this has not been expressed in the library discussion thread.

A different question is whether we want only "sound" books in the library, or whether we want to have some "vain" books as well.

The two sample libraries that Arthur posted in the library thread (Subject: Library discussion and Subject: Library discussion) included some vain books.

Have we determined the order of laboratory builds? I only ask because with an apprentice, if Orien needs a lab to teach her, he'll need an early lab because he needs to teach her at least one season in 1222.

You don't need a lab to teach. However you will need one to open her arts... there are 2 labs being built (structurally) in the spring of 1222, you could spend the summer and fall setting one of them up and using it in the winter. The original plan was for a 'guest' lab to be built first which the magi could share while individual labs were being built.

In the seasonal activities thread, I have tentatively put Maximilian's lab space as ready for Fall of 1222, so he doesn't need it right away.

That's right, we planned on the guest lab being first.

Well, if the guest lab will be done by summer, I can have Orion spend summer and autumn setting up the guest lab. Then he'd want to use it in winter to open the Arts for Anastasia.

Also, is Classical Greek being taught by any of the teachers in any of the seasons of 1222? If so, then Anastasia would like to take that class.

Look to the seasonal time usage thread- the schoolmaster is teaching the regular class in the spring (presumedly Classical Greek with a SQ of 15) and he is teaching Gregario in the summer, which if you were allowed in to that tutotial would drop the SQ for her down to 18 and for Gregario down to 9, plus she'd have to spend the season in class with Gregario...

Excellent; thanks.

The basic class will be fine.

So the first lab will be a guest lab. Who wants the second lab? I have no problem with it going to Maximillian, since he's a Verditus.

Also, I want to start out with a larger lab (SIze 3). Is that allowable? Further, I'd like to ultimately have a lab with Auspicious Shape. It seems odd to have to spend a season adding that feature when the lab is being built from scratch. Is there any way to get the lab initially built in an auspicious shape?

I'm a bit fuzzy about the exact physical layout of the covenant, but wouldn't such a tower be an obviously magical creation that may raise questions? On the other hand, Orion would have planned the addition of the tower some time in advance, or even summoned it during the construction, so it can probably be integrated into the design of the covenant so that it doesn't jump out. Still, it is quite an impressive structure -- an 80 feet high tower would certainly tower over the wooden manor house.

Which leads to another question. What will you do with that much space? A lab need to be all on the same floor, according to Covenants, unless you take a structural flaw such as Awkward Shape. Each floor from CtMT is about 700 square feet, or large enough for +1 Size lab if nothing else is on the same floor. Even with the rest of your sanctum (living quarters) on a different floor, that would leave at least 5 floors free for other uses.

One possibility would be to have the library and council chamber in the tower, but that would really be up to Orion.

Well, Christophoros is splitting his time between teaching some classes and managing the school, so his "season" of teaching at the school is spread out throughtout the year. Also, for the school he would probably concentrate on teaching Artes Liberales (his specialty) rather than Classical Greek. Still, Classical Greek would certainly be taught by one of the other teachers, so arranging to have Anastasia attend wouldn't be a problem (particularly since she has Gentle Gift).

Whether the other teachers would provide with SQ 15 for that class is a different question. That requires a Com + Teaching total of 12, which is quite difficult to obtain without the Good Teacher virtue (which provides a +5 bonus). I think an average Com + Teaching total of 7 for the regular teachers is a more reasonable assumption (leading to a SQ of 10 for those classes). But I'll leave it up to silveroak to make the final call.

Orion could probably arrange for her to attend the same class as Gregario -- Christophoros did not commit to one-on-one teaching with him -- for a better SQ. But that would require some compensation to Christophoros from Orion, as this is above and beyond his duties for the school. The schoolmaster considers his time just as valuable as that of a magus (Proud). Did Orion commit to performing a longevity ritual for him? That would certainly weight in the balance. :laughing: