Covenant Discussion

Many variants are possible for each, which is why I think we should initially focus on the concept.

For example, base on the concepts of silver and thelaurel branch used in the Mercuralia tirual, we could also consider Argentum Ramus (Silver Branch), Argentum Folium (Silver Leaf, with an interesting play on folio/a kind of book), or possibly turn things around with Laurus Argenti, Ramus Argenti and Folium Argenti (I think these express a little more strongly the concept of "silvery" instead of "made of silver" like those beginning with Argentum).

(For what it's worth, I think Laurus Argenti sounds better than Argentum Laurus.)

Folium Argenti... nice pun there :wink:

I like Laurus Argenti.

Ok, a quick recap of where we are on the saga and covenant construction. This may a bit long so bear with me.

Covenant name:

  • What we have: A potential name, "Laurus Argenti"

The magi:

  • What we have: Petronius (Arthur), Aedituus (Archimedes), Titus Aurelius (Tellus) and Praxiteles (Jonathan Link) are detailed in their own threads.
  • What we need: We are still missing magi for Kilgs and Gulla. Both mentioned busy work schedules.

The covenant site:

  • What we have: The primary site in the forest south of the city of Koblenz, built upon the ruins of a temple to Mercury and Rosmerta. We have maps of the main site and its buildings.
  • What we need: Description of the secondary site, including the aerie promised to our sponsor in Crintera.

Vis sources:

  • What we have: Three sources have been detailed. The Mercuralia ritual gives us Vim, while the other two provide us with Rego and Ignem. None of them have a set number of pawns, as this will depend on the build points.
  • What we need: Additional sources.

Grogs and covenfolk:

  • What we have: 4 grogs, 2 covenfolk and 1 companion (Archimedes) have been described. There is a draft of another companion (Arthur), and there is a 1-line description for 8 more grogs
  • What we need: More grogs and covenfolks, with at least a 1-line description of them. Companions for everyone are not a priority but would be nice.


  • What we have: A list of the reasons we were able to gather a sponsor at each covenant.
  • What we need: Names for all of the sponsors would be nice, along with a 1-paragraph description of that sponsor and our relations with him/her.

Build points:

  • What we have: A preliminary list of the resources for two of the magi, which may need to be adjusted if build point cost of books change
  • What we need: Build points from the other 4 magi. Even a preliminary list will be useful, but we need a list to work on

Boons and hooks:

  • What we have: A 2-month old list of boons and hooks currently applicable to the main site
  • What we need: Complete the list for the main site, and create a list for the secondary site(s)

I don't want to be pushy, but there's a lot of work that still needs to be done. Everyone, pick something and chip in! :smiley:

Sorry folks, not work so much as end of summer in the north country here. We pack a lot of get-aways. Just got back from 5 days off and heading out again on Friday. My magi idea keeps oscillating back and forth between a Muto Specialist or Rego. Essentially, I can't decide whether to go magical animal trainer, build a flying ship or go Mysteries.

I did do a preliminary list of BP's and was frankly astounded at how much we were given! Here is what I had as initial ideas:

20pts--Lamb wool 4p/year Animal (each season)(the rubbings of a white lamb that never ages and lives on the covenant grounds are collected)
10pts—Auram 2p/year

VIS STOCKS (28pts)(2pts each)
9p of every vis source (14)

Magic Theory Tractatus Q10(x5)
Philosophiae Tractatus Q10(x2)
Artes Liberales Tractatus Q10(x2)
German Language Summa L4/Q8
Creo Tractatus Q10x2
Perdo Tractatus Q11
Intellego Tractatus Q11

That's about as far as I've gotten so far. I'll see if I can get something up soon.

Not that it matters greatly, but the concept of two of the current magi rely heavily on Rego. Jonathan's Praxiteles is a Rego Craft artist, while my Petronius is a teleportation/portals researcher. Whether that figures into your choice is up to you. :slight_smile:

A few guidelines that Jonathan gave us on the build points:

  • We get 210 build points for covenant resources, plus 50 points for personal resources
  • Vis sources cannot be purchased with personal build points (there's a virtue for that)
  • Vis stocks should not be selected, some stocks will be factored in based on the sources. Vis stocks are just too cheap, or sources are too expensive.
  • Don't use build points for specialists. Design them from the ground up, make them more complete than stats of their most useful numbers.
  • We have a shared lab where the aura is stronger. Anyone can purchase virtues for that lab using covenant build points. Virtues for your own ab can be purchased using personal build points only.

I would also note that under RAW build points, tractatus are not very cost-effective compared to summae.

Here's a list what already been purchased.

Keep in mind that Praxiteles is an adherent to Jerbiton sufficiency. Rego 10 is probably all he'll need.... So he's not a Rego specialist over the long term, he's rather good now, but that's because it was the easiest way to get to certain spells...

An update on the list of Boons and Hooks that would seemed to describe the primary site of the covenant at this time. Additions from the previous list are shown in green. The list is far from complete.

  • Healthy Feature (minor site boon): The subtle effects of the blessing of Rosmerta makes the area within the walls healthy to live in. (Boon added because at least one of the players said they wanted such a feature.)
  • Flickering Aura (minor site hook): Due to the statue and the rituals that must be performed.
  • Manor House (free fortification): The wall around the covenant is slightly higher than 6 feet, but there is no ditch. The ground is raised on the inside so that grogs can see outside of the wall. The wall itself is made of wood.
  • Right (minor resources boon): We've obtained the right to lumber and hunt within the Koblenz forest for 99 years. The authority that granted this to us thought this was a good deal for them, since the ghosts scare most people away and they figured if we could cut down enough trees that would drive the ghosts away. The covenant plans to manage the lumber carefully so that the forest sustains itself. Many of the trees in the forest are white oak, perfect for making wine barrels.
  • Secondary Income (minor resources boon): The two sources of income would be barrel-making and wine merchanting? This provides the covenant with more wealth than usual, and additional financial safety. If Amelia is in charge of the wine merchanting for the covenant, she may not have the time to be the steward at the main site, since she'll have to be in the city most of the time. In the same way, the magical cooper will probably not set up his shop at the main covenant site (takes too much space) and will spend most of his time outside of the covenant.
  • Vis Grant (minor resources boon): The covenant pays out vis to its magi every year.
  • Suffrage (minor residents hook): The covenant grants equal rights to men and women.
  • Church Territories (minor external relations hook): Koblenz and the lands around it are owned by the Bishopry of Trier.

Note that I did not take Boons and Hooks for the dual areas of the aura (they would balance out anyway). In the same way, I did not take Boons or Hooks for being so close to Koblenz, as the ghosts in the forest provide us with a reasonable isolation.

This means we currently have 4 minor boons and 3 minor hooks. Some of the hooks that we could easily add are

  • Indebted (minor resources hook): Since we built the covenant quickly, we had to take in debt to finance it. They debt can be held by mundanes in Koblenz, or by another covenant (Triamore?).
  • Spies (minor resident hook): One or more covenants of the Tribunal has planted one or more spies within our grogs and covenfolks, or maybe it is the Church (ruler of the region) that did that? (This ties in with the background of Praxiteles and relations with Oculus Spetentrionalis)
  • Favors (minor external relations hook): Another covenant has provided a large contribution to our resources, but will request favors out of us. Or this could be related to the Church's grant within the forest.
  • Rival (minor external relations hook): Could be related to one of our income source (we ruffled some feather by financing them), or to another covenant (possibly because of one of the things we did to secure a sponsor).

The secondary site(s) will also have a few Boons and Hooks of their own to describe their specific features.

If our grogs/covenfolk largely come from other covenants, spies are almost inevitable.

Which raises the question, how many actually do come from other covenants? And which covenants?

If they come from covenants where our magi were apprenticed, the likelihood that they'd feel more loyalty towards the old covenant is diminished. These would be grogs that our magi knew and trusted in the first place. These would form the core of our officers. And if we treat the rest of them well we can probably increase their loyalty to us, particularly for younger ones.

Then there are those grogs and covenfolks that would be recruited ourselves, from the time we began preparing to establish the new covenant (and even before). Just because a magus is a peregrinator does not mean he doesn't have one or more shield grogs, and one or more servants. These would be integrated into our covenant. Which is kind of why each player should describe a few of them.

And there is also the matter of local recruits. For example, we need a few guards for our local wine merchant business. These would be found locally, and guard duty could be used as a proving ground for potential additions to our regular grog fighting force. The covenant didn't spring up overnight, so grogs/covenfolk would have been part of the resources the magi would have worked to gather.

All of which doesn't mean we don't have any spies. Would could have spies, and not have the corresponding hook. The hook will determine whether we have stories related to that. After all, that's what hooks are for.

Still, I think we should indicate, for each mundane we describe, where they came from. I'll go through those I've detailed to indicate this.

I've statted out 3 more grogs this week, as added a one-liner description for a covenfolk (a seamstress, wife of one of the grogs). That brings us to a total of 7 grogs. Once I've completed 12, I figure I'll have done my share on that front. Although I may add some additional one-liner descriptions, particularly for covenfolk and guards for the wine-merchanting business. :wink:

I have a mess of ideas for grogs. Of course, as I'm going through them, I'm wanting to change Praxiteles around a bit. I noticed that somewhere along the line, I dropped his Waster of Vis flaw for Painful Magic. I'm trying to figure out why that is. What it means is i I have to competing visions of Praxiteles. A consumer of vis, food, whatever. And then this other vision that is less coherent but perhaps more compelling. What if part of the temple of Mercury and Rosmerta were enhanced by founding a Gymnasium? I mean what could be better than a bunch of sweaty naked people talking about the news of the day? Praxiteles would create some items that would keep the area unnaturally warm in the winter time... It would be a very Greek thing to do, and Hermes (the Greek aspect of Mercury) is the patron of the Gymnasium.
I might drop Greedy and pickup lechery, but I already play a lecherous magus who does whomever comes along... I leave you with an earworm of BeeGees Tragedy.

Another update of the covenant build points, to include the preliminary list Kilgs provided.

I will repost an update as other players chime in and/or review their contributions.

If you decide on the magical animal trainer, the secondary site might be just right for that magus. It is an old Roman farm (or villa) overlooking the Rhine river, about 1 mile northeast from the main site. There would be more space to keep and train animals than at the main site, and is where the aerie for travelling Bjornaer may be sited (although that remains to be decided).

The same could be said of a magus who wants to build a flying ship -- you'd need more space to work, so the secondary site might be better for you.

Here is what I am proposing to do with my allotment of build points:

Vis Sources:
[list]3 pawns Mentem vis from the cobwebby remnants of the area’s ghosts (15 bp)
4 pawns Imaginem vis from a pool (details to come) (20 bp)

Mentem Summa (L15Q10) On Ghosts and Those Left Behind (25 bp)
Auram Summa (L15Q12) World’s Breath (27 bp)
Rego Summa (L18Q12) Understanding Movement and Stillness (30 bp)
Terram Summa (L15Q10) Uncovering the Earth’s Bones (25 bp)
Enigmatic Wisdom Tractatus (Q10) On Questioning (10 bp)
Three Volume Arcane Tractati (Q10 x3) On Fluid Interactions (Magic Theory); On Subtle Manipulations (Finesse); On Sharp Insinuation (Penetration) (30 bp)

Lab texts for 100 levels of spells (20 bp)
Lab texts for 20 levels of enchanted items (8 bp)

Personal Items:
Enigmatic Wisdom Summa (L5Q8) Circles in Infinity (23 bp)
Dominion Lore Tractatus (Q11) Angels in the Architecture (11 bp)
Enchanted Item: wooden candlestick with Lamp without Flame (Base 4, +1 Concentration, +5 item maintains concentration = Level 10 effect) (4 bp)
Lab texts for 50 levels of spells (10 bp)
10 pawns of vis (2 bp)

Added to the list. There was a discrepency between the number of levels for lab texts of enchantment and the number of build points, so I used the number of build points as the correct number.

I've noticed that some areas are over-covered in the build points (mostly in the library), so I thought I would post a second list of the resources, but consolidated by type.

Vis sources:


  • Minor Virtue "Extensive Stores" (+2 Safety) on the shared lab.


  • Art Summae:[list]
    [*]Creo summa (L20Q11) The Fundaments of Creation (31 bp)
  • Intellego summa (L9Q11) Investigating the World (20 bp)
  • Rego summa (L18Q12) Understanding Movement and Stillness (30 bp)
  • Animal summa (L15Q11) The Beast Within (26 bp)
  • Auram summa (L15Q12) World's Breath (27 bp)
  • Corpus summa (L20Q11) The Human Body (31 bp)
  • Mentem summa (L15Q10) On Ghosts and Those Left Behind (25 bp)
  • Terram summa (L15Q10) Uncovering the Earth’s Bones (25 bp)
  • Terram summa (L23Q8) The Chains of Solidity (31 bp) -- Petronius private resource
  • Vim summa (L12Q10) The Manipulations of Mystical Forces (22 bp)
    ]Arts Tractatus:
  • Creo tractatus (Q10x2) (20 bp)
  • Intellego tractatus (Q11) (11 bp)
  • Perdo tractatus (Q11) (11 bp)
  • Rego tractatus (Q10) On Displacement (10 bp)
    ]Abilities Summae:
  • Enigmatic Wisdom summa (L5Q8) Circles in Infinity (23 bp) -- Aedituus private resource
  • (High) German summa (L4Q8) (20 bp)
  • Magic Lore summa (L5Q8) A Compendium of Magical Beasts, Spirits and Sites (23 bp)
  • Magic Theory summa (L8Q11) Fundamental Advances in Magic (35 bp)
  • Penetration summa (L5Q11) Ultor ("The Avenger") (26 bp) from HoH:S p.9
    ]Abilities Tractatus:
  • Artes Liberales tractatus (Q10x2) (20 bp)
  • Dominion Lore tractatus (Q11) Angels in the Architecture (11 bp) -- Aedituus private resource
  • Enigmatic Wisdom tractatus (Q10) On Questioning (10 bp)
  • Finesse tractatus (Q10) On the Interactions between Forms and Techniques, Volume 2 (10 bp)
  • Magic Theory tractatus (Q10x5) (50 bp)
  • Magic Theory tractatus (Q10) On the Interactions between Forms and Techniques, Volume 1 (10 bp)
  • Order of Hermes Lore tractatus (Q8) An Early History of the Order of Hermes (8 bp)
  • Penetration tractatus (Q10) On the Interactions between Forms and Techniques, Volume 3 (10 bp)
  • Philosophiae tractatus (Q10x2) (20 bp)
    ]Lab Texts:
  • Lab texts for 475 levels of spells (95 bp)
  • Lab texts for 50 levels of spells (10 bp) -- Aedituus private resource
  • Lab texts for 95 levels of spells (19 bp) -- Petronius private resource
  • Lab texts for 235 levels of spells (47 bp) -- Hippocrates private resource
  • Lab text for 74 levels of enchanted item (15 bp)
    Enchanted Items:
  • Wooden candlestick with Lamp without Flame (Base 4, +1 Concentration, +5 item maintains concentration = Level 10 effect) (4 bp) -- Aedituus private resource


Money: 100 pounds.

One thing I've noticed is that for Magic Theory, we have a L8Q11 summa + [strike]8 different[/strike] 6 different Q10 tractatus (EDIT: 2 of the Magic Theory tractatus were replaced by 1 Finesse and 1 Penetration). That seems like a lot to me. I would suggest replacing some of those tractatus (and/or lowering the level of the summa) to add some different Arcane Abilities like Code of Hermes, Faerie Lore, Finesse, Infernal Lore, Parma Magica* or Penetration.
[size=85]* I'm not a big fan of Parma Magica books, for secrecy reasons, but depending on how this is treated here it may be appropriate.[/size]

We also have a duplication between a private and shared resource regarding Terram. I may change the private resource for something else since this impacts only my magus.

We have some very high-level summae. Covenants (p.20) describes the "Exceptional Book" Major External Relations Boon as a Art book with a Level+Quality of 35, with a max Level of 20. We have 4 different books with a Level+Quality of 30 or more. Does this make sense for a Spring covenant?

We have 8 different vis sources, many of them fairly small. Do we want to consolidate some of them into stronger sources? For example, the Ignem source (Gemlight) could changed to Imaginem and merged with the other Imaginem source for a total strength of 7 pawns a year. It all depends on how many sources are appropriate. Right now we have 32 pawns per year for 4 to 6 magi (2 have not specified their build points). That makes for 5 to 8 pawns per year per magus, before the Aegis and other covenant needs.

Thank you!
Hopefully this will help me spend my allotted points.

Agreed, more or less.
I think I'll just spend the points to get Ultor (from HoH: S) though.

Which is actually 'low Vis' :wink:
I plan to buy spend ore points on Vis sources (I will need Vis to spend).
However, I generally favour having a wide spread of Vis sources, rather than consolidating.

When listed like that, we have quite a library for a Spring covenant. I'm not too worried about that, as some of us have several years of experience already, and we do get gifts from other covenants in the tribunal. I'm thinking about changing a couple items I listed, just to diversify.

Arthur, I was thinking about taking a lab improvement (communal as well as personal) if possible, but I could not find any build point conversions. How did you determine that the Extensive Stores was worth 10 bp? Is there anything else in particular that we would want for the shared lab?

I'll also fix the bp total for Aedituus. The 220 was an accident. :blush:

What's Ultor? I browsed through HoH:S but didn't find it.