Covenant Discussion

Ooo, just thought of something... duplication of effort. I frequently take Doublet of Impenetrable Silk, for example. I think we should be prepared to revise our bp lists pending what the final characters look like, and say our characters lab texts are already translated and can be added to the library immediately. It's a minor way of boosting our available spells without devouring build points. and seems more than reasonable given the rather paltry 30 xp per year for experience. This can be explained by our characters having corresponded with each other over the past few years, someone mentions they have an opportunity to get a lab text for this or that spell, someone else could have indicated that they already have the one spell, to get the other spell instead.

Sound good?

Sounds good. I expect the list to be revised several times before it is finalized. I have a loong list of lab texts that I would find potentially useful for the library (and not just for my magus).

Possibly not all known spells would be decoded and written out into the covenant's library. Some magi may want to keep some personal spells their own (I haven't decided yet if Petronius would want to keep his Doorway to Doorway to himself or publicize it as widely as possible), and if anyone has the Incomprehensible flaw those lab texts will be essentially useless for regular use (hmmm... although they would still be useful if they concern their research project... story idea).

Sure, but I see most common spells being freely available. Doing something like this might allow us to have slightly better texts on Arts or altogether different spells.

Of course I am willing to revise what I'll use my build points to, but I think that items like that would be relatively common. While it has a lot of effects they are mostly low level. Which means once you have lab text for the effect your apprentice can instill it in his spare time and items are one of the most useful things to use vis to. Once covenant has lived hundred years or so in peace and magi have had chance to get experience in training apprentices they would probably make utility items - warm and healthy covenant with covenfolk seeing why serving their lords and masters is such great proposition. Such items that help covenants would be easiest things to gift a new covenant. Of course those effects could be in separate items - the form is not that important, but rather the use.

It really does depend how common vis is, but not certainly that much. Using vis to magical combat is very wasteful nowadays. In 4th ed you at least got +5 to casting totals so it was very useful for penetration. When you use vis for casting totals there really has to be a good reason for it - life or death situation literally.

Once you stop needing to struggle to gather vis to cast Aegis of Hearth there's very little you really need to do. In tabletop campaign I am participating to my character just started a project to devise set of ritual spells and items that would allow her to design nice and peaceful garden away from wordly concern. Rego Terram ritual to transform landscape, Creo Terram to create walls, Creo Aquam to create springs to prepared landscape, Creo Herbam to create flora she'd rather see there. Perdo Auram, Rego Auram, Crei Ignem etc items to make weather more tolerable and to make sure she'll have peace she so desires. Creo and Rego Herbam for seasonal fruits and berries.

I don't disagree with it being common or easily achievable. Put it another way, if you spend your build points on this device you don't have much to use to grow your Arts, or those of your sodales. My opinion is that it's better to have the tools that get us to the point to make things like this than to have things like this (teach a man to fish...). The covenant we are forming hasn't lived a hundred years in peace, and the item doesn't add value to the covenant over time. If this were the situation where we were coming into a winter covenant to revitalize it and move it into spring, I'd have no qualms about the device existing. IMO, our magi should be more interested in growth at this early stage than in creature comforts, and the things we should bring should be reflective of that. We've worked 5-10 years to found this covenant, but the founding is only the beginning, the first step on a long journey.
Now, if Wido has a reputation as spendthrift and doesn't care what his sodales think, sure, that's a perfectly legitimate device for him to bring, and everything I say is off the table because the device is reflective of the character and it can be used to tell interesting stories. This might generate some inter-PC conflict, though.

I'm not particularly interested in this being a story about scarce resources and eeking out an existence just barely above subsistence. Taking the device instead of books or more vis sources leaves us poorer and closer to telling those stories. That device does nothing to enhance our trading position or enrich our knowledge. It simply is. 72 bps will buy quite a bit. 1-L10Q12 summa 1-L15Q15 summa 1-L10Q10 summa (all on Arts) for example, or 14 pawns of vis sources, with a little bit leftover for something else. If your character were to turn around and trade that device do you think he could reasonably expect to get the same kind of return? I don't think so. I think the items are a bit too expensive, to be honest, but I don't have a method for recomputing their value to something more reasonable.

Adding one more participant, kind of the inspiration for this idea. Kilgs has asked to join, so I couldn't really refuse. :smiley: I did say in that thread that we are full, though.

I'm going to keep the same build point allocations set at 175+50; not bother with recalculating them. We now have a total build point allocation of 1,575, up from 1,350, which still keeps us in the lower end of the high range, unless there's a consensus to recalculate (in case you're wondering I've already done it and it would probably be 155+40 or some total of 195 bp would make for a total of 1,365).

175+50 is fine - I'll even try getting around to spending them soon :-/

Here's the thing... I'm thinking the setup process should have a long incubation time. Speed isn't of the essence for me. I'm still fighting with my character concept. If we get to the point where some people are ready to begin writing out some stories and doing stuff with their magus and progress things forward, I don't have a problem with that. Presumably the magus brought or donated stuff that they're interested in using almost immediately. If they want to write stories about the vis sources that they've paid build points for, great.

The idea here is to be flexible to the frequent posters and the infrequent posters. I might be interested in an opening council thread where we have some interaction, but that doesn't have to happen. And they're is the six months of sanctum setup that we all have to do. There's discussions about covenant service and what that entails, and how much is necessary. The build points really are a small part of the equation.

Nods

If you need to value items in some rule based way you can see them as investement in cost savings, income and loyalty. Covenants suggests that items that improve income are treated as income modifiers that are applied permanently. Valuing improved income is not easy as it depends a lot on what sort of income covenant has, but is relatively straightforward. Cost savings category has suggestion that every magnitude of effect saves a pound a year - which is very rough and doesn't scale with usefulness of some items (e. g. CrIg item to warm unlimited number of rooms), but gives very nice rule of thumb. Loyalty does not have straightforward rules for items that give comfort to covenfolk, but they could be treated as minor positive events that happen regularily or one time boni to loyalty. For example in an another internet based campaign Verditius that I play made couple of needles that she can use to keep clothing water resistant and warm for moon duration. She applies the effect herself to covenfolks clothes and exchanges couple of words with everyone while she does that (and of course her sigil reminds covenfolk of her while they wear their clothes). While we do not keep track of loyalty I would argue that actually improves loyalty of covenfolk as much as holding regular festivities.

Now we would need to value changes in income/loyalty to vis. For my purposes improved income and cost savings are considered equal even though rules for inflation mean they are not exactly the same. One way of valuing a pawn of vis is given in pager 69 of covenants (The Price of Vis insert) where it suggest that 10 pounds is a starting point for a negotiation. HoH:M Verditius section suggest 15 pounds IIRC. These guidelines suggest that Vis is indeed cheaper than money when bought with build points - you either could buy 10 pounds of silver with a build point or 5 pawns of vis that could be sold for 50 pounds silver (or even used to create gold worth about 800 pounds of silver).

This leaves us with valuing changes in costs or income - how much is stream of income worth? Covenants seems to value vis sources so that you can either buy vis source of one vis with 5 build points or get 25 pawns of vis in stocks with those build points. So if we assume that same 25 years as baseline for value of items that produce cost savings we can compare them to buying pounds of silver in stocks. 2 magnitudes cost 4 build points and save 2 pounds a year according to guideline - so they are worth 50 pounds of silver with that 25 year assumption. 4 build would buy 40 pounds of silver in stocks so items are better than buying silver with these assumptions.

Value of loyalty is difficult to determine. How much is it worth to a magus to have a bodyguard that would give his (or hers) life for you instead of backstabbing you? I do not venture to give a guess - we could try determining a half life of a magus and how loyalty affects that and determine worth of an magus as how much vis he can distill during his life. That excercise is beyond this post.

Magi of the covenant can do items themselves or order them from a friendly verditore. House Verditius has price guideline for items - essentially you pay 3 times what making item yourself would cost. So 2nd magnitude item would cost 3 pawns of vis (assuming someone is willing to accept such order - you are adviced to order in bulk or make such order to a magus that has an apprentice). This suggest that you can buy 20 pawns of vis with 4 build points that buy you about 6 magnitudes of effects (2 pawns of vis can be assumed to be used to pay for timely delivery by your dear local redcaps) which compares rather nicely to buying 10 levels of effect by those same build points. So buying items with build points seems excessively costly when compared to buying vis stocks. Those same build points can be used to have vis income of 2 pawns a year - half of which could be used to make that 2nd magnitude item that year (feat that should be almost possible to just gauntleted magus), but leaves us with figuring out how much time of magus is worth.

Magus time has luckily lower bound for value as magus can distill vis - assuredly very interesting and fun passtime. For a starting magus I assume that he can distill at least 3 pawns of vis (because for example having Int 3, Creo 6, Vim 6, MT 3 and Aura 3 is possible for such a young magus) so cost of item for a covenant is actually 1+3 pawn of vis. Which still makes a proposition of making an effect yourself sensible.

Overall it seems that buying silver or items is expensive compared to having vis and that items are rather expensive when compared to making them yourself or even ordering them from Verditius. Of course magi will not be able to make all items by themselves and they might value their time more than what they can distill in a season.

This all was based on rules and suggestions books give us. Some might argue that warmth and health are not really valued very much by the rules - both are almost trivial to provide with items and were not that easy to provide by 13th century technology. Having a home that stays warm no matter what is actually rather nice and I'd say that benefits of making 7th magnitude item[1] to provide that to everybody in covenant is worth probably more than 7 pounds of silver annually. No need to collect that much firewood so there are fewer workers so enviroment will stay better and there are less costs, etc. Boni to recovery from wounds and ilness are also worth a lot even just counting loss of work from workers.

None of this has taken into account that magi themselves could value comfort given by items a lot, but that is up to invidual magi.

Why I did have an idea about other covenants gifting such item to our starting covenant? It is actually a trinket when it comes to a power - its mightiest effect was Ear for Truth that would help to keep order among covenfolk (decreasing costs as corruption is more difficult to hide and over all make covenant more honest). It actually is something I'd see as something that summer/autumn covenants could give to new covenants as it is relatively easy to produce once you have lab texts and covenant that uses it will know who gave it to them - a constant reminder of your stronger allies and what they've done for you already. Rhine tribunal actually has a custom for giving gifts for new covenants.

Of course were magi able to see build points or measure them they would probably rather have vis sources - I think vis sources are currently probably best value proposition overall for a covenant - maybe with some high level high quality summae competing with them on a narrow band - almost everything can be done with magic and you can study magic from vis. Why have anything else?

Essentially I see this as question what kind of simulation do we want to run - which is question that applies to all roleplaying campaigns. If we are going for optimal optimization power over span of 50 years we have different problem than if we start with relatively realistic, but cartoonish magi in almost believable covenant. If we shoot for stars I'd recommend that we start with Aura of 9 (10 if possible), free study and affinities for our chosen arts - (12+ stress die)*1.5exp is very hard to beat and vis sources that match our arts will provide plenty of study sources. ~80exp a year (3 seasons of study) is nothing to sneeze at if kept going for even 25 years that are needed for those vis sources to break even compared to stocks of vis.

It was fun trying to write this. I'll now go over what I'll use those build points for. What do you think will be more realistic for a young magus to bring to a covenant with those build points? Some books probably and preferably a lot of vis sources (but those could be scarce).

[1] Warmth of a home CrIg 35 (Base 2 (warm to the touch), Touch +1, Room +2, Moon +3, Unlimited uses +10 levels)

After a while a magus will tire of casting spells constantly and will want to invest that into a device or perhaps purchase said device. That's certainly true, but we are young and upstart and perhaps see the folly of not relying on everything we saw our parentes rely on. Or maybe we covet those creature comforts. I'm not saying your build points are "wrong." I am saying that from a character perspective, I can see those bells being disappointing. I can envision the scenario where Wido promises he has something great to give, and when it's unveiled, it's disappointing to many. Couple that with what I'm going to say below after the quotation.

It's realistic, depending on what your character is like. For example, the books he brings, are they sufficient to complete the research he needs to do? Does he need more books? How soon? Where are they coming from? What's the cost? See where I'm coming from?

As for covenant service and vis distribution - I think Wido prefers having a season a year for covenant service that each member basically can choose themselves. If someone would build a item that improves covenant somehow and others agree it does make sense then one should just do that. He thinks that seasons of service should be possible to "store" if there is a need for longer continuous projects so he could for example improve covenant 2 years and then not have to worry about service for next 6 years. If a project is related to covenant he thinks that covenant should pay for vis costs if quorum of a council of a covenant agrees to it. Should magus not be able to complete season of work in time his vis grant should be witheld until such season of work has been completed. Should magus not complete season of service for 7 years in a row council should have right to vote about removing magus from a covenant membership unless there is a force majeure reason for not being able to be present. Should a magus lose time in service of covenant that time should be considered as his covenant service unless it was lost due irresponsible carelessness (for example protecting covenants interest by negotiating with faeries and being trapped in faerie for 7 years should be considered service to the covenant unless there is a good reason as seen by the council to believe it was due irresponsible carelessness).

Providing self written books without the Cow and Calf oath to a library of the covenant should be considered a service to the covenant of at least one season.

Providing new vis sources to the covenant should be considered a service that council of a covenant can value with seasons of service or in an another appropriate way that council so chooses.

He thinks that members should have a vis grant and that council could vote for extra grants for projects that deemed to be in interest of all magi concerned. Vis grant should be in type of vis that magus needs and that is possible for covenant to provide - it should be noted that it is in interest of a covenant to secure trade relations with other covenants to make sure interest of magi are met by production and trade of vis. Amount of vis grant should be that is possible for covenant to provide easily and that reflects relative values of different types of vis by first means of production and then by trade.

Wido thinks that covenant should provide a secure place for magi and as such provide an Aegis of a Hearth of sufficient power before providing vis for projects of different magi. Should magi choose to live outside Aegis it is their choice, but they should have a place for a laboratory within Aegis and they should not be refunded for their preference for life outside covenants Aegis.

Wido would prefer democratic covenant that allows Founding magi to bascially make decision for covenant without consulting others, but having to answer to council of covenant for those decisions. It is better that magi are free and trusted so let is be that they do not ask for permission but rather forgiveness (should that be necessary) unless it is matter of Oath of Order of Hermes when of course that previous Oath supercedes covenants preferences.

Magi should only belong to single covenant lest their interest be in conflict.

Essentially Wido prefers "Live and let live" approach to covenant politics as he obviously wants a head start to his research.

I do see where you are coming from, but I do think that you assume too much that magi are able to compare how much else magus could have brought to the covenant with those build points. Of course magi are able to compare what each magus has brought, but that is not trivial either - Wido might not have had choice between 14 pawns of vis a year and that item and those creature comforts are very nice indeed.

Build points do make it trivial to have say 8 specialists of great skill (8*8bps) and enough vis to provide them all with longevity (20 pawns of corpus a year). In a way it is easy to see why longevity is a good way to attract craft masters of great skill that are slowly starting to age, but it is still quite a stretch to see it as likely. Gift makes promises of extra decades of life to sound treacherous and damning.

About those creature comforts - they are not only for magi, but to covenfolk too - that is why there are those unlimited uses in those items. It makes leaving covenant a lot harsher as you leave your warm home and your clothes stop staying warm after few weeks. You realise why your magical master were actually rather nice and helps to realise what they've done for you. It is their might that keeps you warm and that is why you'll do your admittedly small part in service to the covenant. And it certainly is true! Magi can take in those hated by outsiders, give them meaning in their life and make that life very nice.

Overall I do not know what build points should be used to. If I'd go for optimization route I would indeed make a Verditius magus and start crafting items of great usefulness immediately. It just seems one of the most obvious choices for long term campaign - first few years making those comfort trinkets and other little additions to covenant would pay off handsomely very soon. An another simulation that might be interesting to run would be playing a Tytalus or Jerbiton with Gentle Gift and interest (and talent!) in Intrigue - building those webs of power among covenfolk, mundanes and magi. Of course combining those two would not be impossible - Verditius with interest in intrigue/Leadership could be very formidable in his own way. Mirror with Intangible tunnel, Posing the Silent question and Creo Mentem (for feelings of Gaudium and Terror at least) would be more or less nice beginning of a large and loyal intrigue network. How high could loyalty in a covenant go if it had dedicated crafter of intrigue making it go higher? Why should it top at measley 6? Would they hold a yet another feast in your honor if it reached 9? Now that I think of it that would be rather fun too ^.^

For practical purposes - I am not sure what Wido needs. Varied steady source of vis and probably some books in magic theory, but books are certainly expensive in build points. Intelligent company and basic needs taken care of. Safety. Safety is hard to provide with build points. Varied vis sources I did have - but that was problematic as they were too varied. Maybe I'll make an another attempt with few more specialist (bookbinders, etc) thrown in and I'll remove that magic item and chamberlain.

Here's an idea, one one that rewards role play or, maybe more correctly stated here, creative writing...don't use build points for specialists.
Design them from the ground up, make them more complete than stats of their most useful numbers?

The bookbinder is a lush, sometimes we get books that the pages are upside down...
The scribe is a spy, a failed apprentice who we've inadvertently hired. His Scribing and Latin are high enough that he copies out our texts...
The Illuminator, she's crazy, in the way that genius and brilliant people can be.

Well, obviously!

Learning from vis is a bad deal. There's a reason why it doesn't start until art scores get to ~20. And magi of an old age will devour tractatus written on their favored Arts.
See this chart to see how bad a deal it is. If it's all you have, then it's all you have, but it shouldn't be a first choice. It's incredibly risky.

It's possible no one else will bring an item and will make up in books. I'm just seeing a potential character conflict point. Sure, it's a great item it does a lot of stuff, but it's like Jack's magic beans. I think the items are great, my character may not. And then it's possible that no one ever uses it. Let's not forget warping. If we're in a room that's constantly heated by magic...there's warping happening there. If we have to question our grogs with the device always present, they may begin to figure it out. It might become a problem.

Study from Books >> Study from Vis
...Which probably explains why every covenant I've ever been in (in this edition) have begun cluttering up with books quite fast.

I will use build points mainly for books and some powerful spells. It fits very well with the plans (and scetchy background) of Hipocrates.

What kind of spells have you thought about Gulla?

Tellus - concerning summae I agree, but for example tractatii are quite expensive compared to vis sources. Quality 10 tractatus compares very badly to vis source of 2 vis a year. Writing tractatii makes books relatively efficient and gives a very good excuse to imagine what character is actually studying about while writing his/her books.

Studying from vis has problem of possible botches, but safer lab helps a lot with that. Variable quality does not matter that much nor chance for exploding die. So studying from vis is not that bad - especially if aura is high. With aura of 6 it is extremely hard for tractatii to compete with studying arts from vis - quality 11 tractatii have to be acquired by writing or by trade and both do take some time. In aura of 3 I think tractatii and studying from vis compare pretty well to each other.

Writing does not suffer from botches, but has problem of limited chance to write about anything. There are only so many tractatii magus can write about a subject so book circle has to grow in size to be able to sustain improving arts and skills of participants. It does sound like it would be rather normal for covenants to trade their tractatus collections once in a while if they trust other covenants - that would allow for more reading after common summae have been depleted.

I think that build points just make vis and vis sources very cheap compared to everything, but that normally campaigns won't have that much vis available to magi. Tractatii are probably a lot cheaper than vis sources in actualy game play - an another one you have to probably risk life and limb to acquire and an another is probably possible to acquire by sending letters and holding meetings - maybe writing one yourself, but not necessarily.

Hmm, getting sideways promotions make for extra work at work, but Sunday is free still :slight_smile:

Hippocrates will be bringing with him the following:

The Beast Within - Summae on Animal - L15, Q11 - 26 Points
The Fundaments of Creation - Summae on Creo - L20, Q11 - 31 Points
The Human Body - Summae on Corpus - L20, Q11 - 31 Points
Fundamental Advances in Magic - Summae on Magic Theory - L8, Q11 - 35 Points

Transcribed Lab-texts:
The Bed of Recovery (Lvl 34, enchanment that gives +18 on recovery rolls to the one using it at sunrise and sunset.) - 7 points.
Incantation of the Body Made Whole (CrCo 40) - 8 points.

Body of the Titans (CrCo 50, +1 Strength, max +3) - 10 points.
Speed of the Quicklings (CrCo 50, +1 Qik, max +3) - 10 points.
Dexterity of the Najades (CrCo 50, +1 Dex, max +3) - 10 points.

Expert:
Michel(le) - the woman philosopher pretending to be a man to be allowed to learn and teach. Teaching + Com 5, Artes liberales 5, Philosophiae 5. - 10 points.

Personal resources:
Source of Corpus vis (probably a by-product of his familiar) 5 pawns/year - 25 points.
Seven League Stride (ReCo 30) - 6 points
The Leap of Homecoming (ReCo 35) - 7 Points
Inner Beauty on the Outside (CrMe 50, +1 Prescence max +3) - 10 points.

I think that will be 175 + 50 points, but with a bit less kept personal.

One thing we should probably discuss is how cooperative vs competitive we will play the Order. My character concept is relying on a rather cooperative Order since a specialist needs a market to function properly.

So how do we view book exchange? I'm used to (and like) that mediocre/vanity summae can be swapped rather easily (provided you supply the transcriber/copier).
Tractati is considered the bargain coin of the Order and you can always get equal for equal in trade. In addition (high quality) tractati is the preferred payment if you want something from grown up magi (unless you are desperate and/or otherwise willing to pay by "outstanding favour").

Is this how others see our Order as well: A community where cooperation and trade is rather common and use of specialists (ie for longevity and building and magic items) is at least not rare (in fot completely widespread)?