Ah. You are correct. Still 5 warping points to make an average magus into a fellow who could give Cicero pointers seems entirely worth it. In any event, my Creo lab rat definitely needs to start up a cottage industry making these rituals. 
Nathan
Hm, Covenants indicates that the bonus to quality from lowering the target level is limited to twice the base quality. It seems to me that the final limit is then Base Quality * 3, not Base Quality * 2.
I thought 5e core said the total could only be *2, though. And *3 is barely a limit at all: a 0 Com no virtues author could have a bonus of 12, meaning someone who could write at level 20 (hence having level 40 in the art) writing at level 8, for a quality of 18. Comm 5 could have a Quality of 33, which is nearly impossble to reach with Teaching even with 5 Comm, Teaching 10, and Good Teacher (Quality 29: 5+10+3+6+5). I don't think a book should be of higher quality than direct instruction by a gifted teacher.
There has been some discussion on how possible it would be for someone to learn the level 60 ritual to increase stats to the +5.
The first step to achieving this type of level easily is to have a related focus either major or minor.
Examples could be a major focus on Men, Women, Transformations, ...
Examples could be a minor focus on Improvements ( characteristic increases ), Self-Transformation,...
The benefit of this approach is that you need only a Creo and Corpus/Mentum score of 20 in each to get you 60. If you have a text to work from then the inventing can take a season ( note this does not include the bonuses for Magic Theory, Intelligence, or specialty in inventing spells ). A score of 20 in both arts would be not too hard to achieve over a fifteen year period ( much less if their were appropriate texts to study from and the mage had the time to dedicate to study ).
The next virtues that would be useful would be Affinities with the related arts. The affinities would reduce the experience required to learn to a high enough level. A magus that made a living creating rituals for others would likely find this useful because they could reduce the time to perform this service with higher skill at an earlier age. Level 20 in skill would cost 140 xp in each art to learn for a total xp cost of 280 xp or a savings of 420-280=140xp or roughly 5 years savings using 30 xp per year.
The next virtues that would be useful would be Puissant Creo, Corpus/Mentum. A pair of these add +6 to the total.
Now assuming that a master like a bonisagus took time to work with their apprentice to find the optimum time of day/season for casting and the optimum way to cast magic by the apprentice. That training could result in cyclic magic for a +3 bonus and special circumstances for a +3 bonus ( the rituals for learning and need do not not need to be able to be done all the time so it is well worth waiting for the magus to get everything lined up the way they want to learn and cast the spell ). These give another +6 bonus.
We thus have so far a focus for either 1 or 3 points + optional 2 virtues in affinities + 4 for puissant and casting cirumstances.
Are minimum is 5 minor virtues and max is 9 virtues so far.
The minimum case is narrow value with +12 casting total.
The maximum case is wider value ( more applications for example study in transformations ) which is easier to learn with the +12 casting total.
If the House is beneficial ( benefit aids the concept like Bonisagus or Mercere ) then you are able to next claim Puissant in Magical Theory for +2 ( to learn spells ) ( Mercere would not pay for the puissant in creo so would be able to buy puissant magic theory ).
The last virtue that you could look at would depend on your own consideration of the situation. If you feel their is an existing copy of the ritual(s) that just need to be "re-invented" repeatedly be the magus to meet other magi's requests then Adept Labratory Student with the +6 bonus would be good to tailor the existing spell each time. If you feel it is a scratch invention each time then Inventive Genius for +3 each time.
I personally think that in the century of years of history of the Order that these spells likely exist. It might take a trip to Duremar with an appropriate level of service ( story event if a character or just background information if NPC created by ST ) to get a copy but it should be possible.
After the first ritual is learned/created the player can get a +12 bonus for similar spells. Using similar spells it is worth while to spend a season learning a lower level 30 ritual for +6 bonus ( a season of study to get a +6 bonus learning the more difficult spell ).
After the first ritual is learned you can be looking at a bonus to learn later rituals of +14 ( puissant, circumsances ) + 3 ( inventive genius but might be +6 with book learner ) +12 ( similar spell ) = + 29 to learn.
Consider that Int is likely +3 ( though could be +5 if you have improved yourself ) and magic theory is 5 with specialty in inventing spells.
Your total now is Tech + Form x 2 + 9 + Aura + 29.
Our dedicated magus with 20 in each related tech and form in an aura 3 enviroment would have a lab total of 20 + 20x2 + 9 + 3 + 29 = 102 or he can invent from scratch the ritual in 2 seasons. If the spell is deemed close enough for a lab text to apply then it is doable in less then a season.
Would this magus exist?
Well, when this magus was not doing this his skills would relate well to making longevity rituals and possible cures for mental or physical ailments. The magus probably can charge a fairly good charge like double or triple the cost of vis expended in the rituals.
The real limiters are the vis for the rituals and the warping points the person will take from the constant effect ( even longevity is 1 warping per year ).
Note: there are other ways to get bonuses like a magus with good leadership ability could have several lab assistants each adding an Int bonus and a magic theory bonus ( Magic theory of 3 and Int +1 equals +4 bonus each or a +12 with only 3 assistants ). A mage with puissant in leadership could have some real gains in the lab with a team of dedicated assistants.
I'm surprised that this provided enough meat for discussion.
I just ran through some numbers to see if I was being overly optimistic.
I posited a magus 100 years out of apprenticeship who has some interest in such things with the resoning that the spells would be invented by an elder magus and that a magus who was not somewhat skilled in Creo and the appropriate form would not even attempt it.
What would this magus's lab total look like?
I think it would look like this
+2 intellegence
+3 aura
+3 lab focus
+9 magic theory (this requires 175 xp more than MT 4, the character has had 400 seasons since apprenticeship assuming tha tthe character never once studied MT 9 would still be a reasonable number based on exposure xp alone)
+8 familiar (Int +2 magic theory 6)
+7 apprentice (int +3 magic theory 4)
+25 creo
+25 form (level 25 in an art requires 325 xp about eight years of study or less than 10% of the magus's time)
+8 similar spell bonus (for knowing a level 40 version)
A total of 90 meaning a level 60 spell could be developed in two seasons without even a single relevant virtue.
Add inventive genious, pussant creo or book learner to this and the age required for the magus drops significantly. Add an applicable magical focus and an affinity or two and the neccessary age drops drastically.
Well, here is an in-play Magus who is actually doing this stuff - its part of his breakthrough research actually.
1st Caveat - This Magus was designed as a Bonisagus mentem specialist who was good with books and writing, but not specifically designed for this improvement ritual stuff.
2nd BIG Caveat - This was initially a 4th Ed Magus who was then shoehorned into 5th Ed, the major conseqence being that his Mentem score is probably higher than it would be in 5th because he used to spend a fair amount of his personal vis source on study - he planned to eventually write THE Mentem text - and his MT score is also higher as well. Lastly, after translating all his virtues and flaws across he ended up with 7 pts of virtues and 10 of flaws and no Major Hermetic Virtue. After some discussion with the group we eventually settled on a Major Focus in Similar Spells. An odd one I know, and not strictly by the book as it goes through all arts, but it is also quite restricted. The main reason we did this is because he is and has always been, a bit of an inventive-risky-genius/nutcase experimenting wildly when inventing high level spells (often in a single season) and frequently (very frequently) having to then reinvent them to eliminate their flaws. This is something he does very well and it just seemed 'right' for him to have a special ability when it came to refining or modifying spells he already knows. It also makes his previous emphasis on inventing new formulaic spells (a wide variety too) sensible as the SS focus can operate similarly in some ways to flexible formulaic magic - if he knows a formulaic spell he can get quite a good spont for a SS by the time he adds his smallest Art twice as well as the SS bonus!
Quintus Quirite
Quintus started by inventing Clear Expression of the Clever Wizard in his first season - without using his apprentice (who was probably locked into the library knowing Quintus) since he needed only a not-botch on his experimental roll to succeed in a single season.
Cr Me 40 R:pers D:mom T:ind Ritual, +1 Com(max+2)
Cr16+Me31+4Int+3IG+5Au+12MT+4Lab+3ExpIG+3RF+DR17=96 invented, Side Benefit.no discovery
This one is lower than he needs so that he could get it in a single season. It might have been smarter to use the range touch +1 Com max +1 so that it would still be useful to others, but that wasn't part of the big picture so he ignored it.
Next season was Clear Expression of the Superior Sorceror, still without his apprentice
Cr Me 50 R:pers D:mom T:ind Ritual, +1 Com(max+4)
Cr16+Me31+4Int+3IG+12MT+5Au+4Lab+3ExpIG+3RF+8SS+16MF+DR1(not botched)=105, Invented, Discovery* (used +1RF) 15xpMT
This discovery was later stabilised for 10 pts at a cost of 2 warping points.
Further down the line, after some time off dealing with other things and also further training the apprentice, Quintus invents Clear Expression of the Master Magi, this time with the Apprentice contributing enough to keep it to a single season (and also a good roll, though only a 3 was needed).
Cr Me 60 R:Touch D:mom T:ind Ritual +1 Com(max+5)
Cr16+Me31+4Int+3IG+12MT+10App+5Au+4Lab+3ExpIG+3RF+10SS+16MF+DR11=128 Invented, no Extraordinary Effects
He then starts branch off into the +Int spells and will eventually come back to a number of lower level variants as so far he has only the one discovery stabilised for his research.
So there you have a 'real life' example of a currently in-play character, albeit a slightly better-for-his-age-than-he-should-be one due to 4th Ed start.
So far, the only virtues that have made a difference are the 5 points on Major Focus (which made no difference on the first spell), Inventive Genius, and Mentem Affinity.
Good Intelligence and Puissant MT (Bonisagus) could both have been done without at this stage.
Incidentally, Quintus has Com +3 and Good Teacher as well and has not yet cast or applied any of the rituals. Since we don't have anything approaching the Branches (is that what they are called?) for Arts in our saga at present he is also starting to spread the net wide searching for other Magi to join in a All-the-Branches set of books to distribute order wide.
Corbon
There need not be any warping effects. These ary momentary Creo Rituals, not constant effects. And if cast on self or specifically designed for the recipients, there is no warping for the high power either.
Vis is still a problem, but when you consider the age and power a Magi is likely to be, not to mention the specialties he is likely to have, even that problem has a high chance of being reduced unless in a radically vis-poor saga.
Mind you, that last depends on the Magi. My sample, Quintus, has always concentrated on inventing spells rather than enchanting items, so his vis stocks have built up quite high indeed over decades of not-much use.
Corbon
Thanks Corbon, that was an awesome example and shows that the +5 spells should be lurking around in Duremar if magi are willing to pay the vis and warping to invent and cast them upon themselves.
I think it is also quite likely that there is a mage or two that does a tidy side market in selling Longevity Rituals. A specialist with a good focus and a few bonuses could easily be in the 100+ catagory for a longevity ritual giving the magi that bought the ritual a +20 or more on the aging roll.
I was thinking today that such a magi might create such rituals for other magi charging a fee of 1 pawn of vis for every year of life extended with the ritual. That could easily work out with a bit of clientel and time to 30 to 50 pawns of vis a year and most magi would consider it a bargin for such a potent ritual that can extend their lives for long decades without even the appearance of aging ( much less the cost of having to recast poorer rituals every time they failed ).
The only trouble is that type of business might get the tribunals greedy for all that pawns of vis coming into the magus so the magus might want to invest a portion of the gains in donations to higher tribunal members for protection.
Instead of selling your Longevity rituals for a said amount of vis it might be wiser to annonce that you will make one every second or third year and sell it to the highest bidder. If they are among the best longevity rituals in the order it is concievable that one or more powerful combat-oriented Archmagi have bought on for the price of: "I will declare wizards war on any enemy you might have."
Hail Eris!
Flarg
I think this is both a frightening and fantastic idea. It doesn't quantify the price and it adds a story element that could work for or against the player characters. I like this idea a lot and think it should be explored in game.
Reopening the topic from dormancy:
I would assume that L 5, Q 15 summae are readily available for all Arts, as 1) they count as vain books, 2) Art 22, Com +3 is enough to write one.
It takes just a single season of study from such a summa to go from level 0 to level 5 in an Art, so it takes just 3 years of study to get all Arts to Level 5.
Compare this to teaching: to get Source Quality 15 you need something like: 15 = Com +3, Teaching 6, Single Student +6.
It makes no sense for most magi to teach the Arts after opening them, instead of just getting the basic primer and telling the apprentice to read it! Ditto for teaching Magic Theory: one season with a L 3, Q 15 summa is much more effective then most teachers...
Apprenticeship is 15 years. How an earth do you get apprentices with less then 5 in all Arts, especially since a well trained apprentice is both a future resource and a prestige item?
Of course, you can always give a rationale like "but mages are tradition bound and don't realize this, so they teach their students as they were thought", which is fine, but is really just an explanation for an inconsistency between mechanics and the world-as-described. I'm hoping I'm missing something and this actually makes sense somehow...
Slightly baffled again.
Cheers,
--d
This is more of a primer than a vain summa, in my opinion, but basically this works, yes. Several of us have noted that if you do nothing but trasin your apprentice in Arts, he can get his degree in 4 years. 8)
The one point I'd make to you is that a magus with a score of 5 in everything's a weakling, not an asset. Far better to get strong pairs of arts.
Assume L 5, Q 15 primers on all Arts, L 3, Q 15 primer on Magic Theory, and Tractatuses of levels 6, 7, and 8 on two Arts, and a selection of Lab texts for spells, and Aura 3. I don't this is an unreasonable library. Assume teacher Com +1, Teaching 3, for teaching SQ 7. Assume student Int +1.
Assume that as long as the apprentice can benefit from his books the magus lets him read for 2 seasons each year, and uses him as a lab-slave for the other 2. When books are no longer available, assume the magus teaches for one season and uses the lab-slave for 3.
First year is an exception, as you need to open the Arts to claim the apprentice, and allow him to read up on magic theory to be able to use him in the lab.
Notation: Year.Season
1.1: Opening the arts.
1.2: Read primer on Magic Theory, gives MT level 3.
1.3: Lab, 2xp on MT.
1.4: Lab, total 4xp on MT.
2.1: Read primer on Art 1, gives Art level 5.
2.2: Read primer on Art 2, gives Art level 5.
2.3: Lab, total 6xp on MT.
2.4: Lab, total 8xp on MT.
...years 3-4 follow pattern...
5.1: Read primer on Art 7, gives Art level 5.
5.2: Read primer on Art 8, gives Art level 5.
5.3: Lab, total 18xp on MT.
5.4: Lab, total 20xp on MT, gives level 4.
6.1: Read primer on Art 9, gives Art level 5.
6.2: Read primer on Art 10, gives Art level 5.
6.3: Lab, total 2xp on MT.
6.4: Lab, total 4xp on MT.
7.1: Read primer on Art 11, gives Art level 5.
7.2: Read primer on Art 12, gives Art level 5.
7.3: Lab, total 6xp on MT.
7.4: Lab, total 8xp on MT.
8.1: Read tractatus Q 6 on Art 1, gives Art 1 level 6.
8.2: Read tractatus Q 7 on Art 1, gives Art 1 level 7.
8.3: Lab, total 10xp on MT.
8.4: Lab, total 12xp on MT.
9.1: Read tractatus Q 8 on Art 1, gives Art 1 level 8.
9.2: Read tractatus Q 6 on Art 2, gives Art 2 level 6.
9.3: Lab, total 14xp on MT.
9.4: Lab, total 16xp on MT.
10.1: Read tractatus Q 7 on Art 2, gives Art 2 level 7.
10.2: Read tractatus Q 8 on Art 2, gives Art 2 level 8.
10.3: Lab, total 18xp on MT.
10.4: Lab, total 20xp on MT.
11.1: Teaching Art 1, total 7xp.
11.2: Lab, total 22xp on MT.
11.3: Lab, total 24xp on MT.
11.4: Lab, total 26xp on MT, gives MT level 5, plus 1xp.
12.1: Teaching Art 1, total 14xp, gives level 9, plus 5xp.
12.2: Lab, total 3xp on MT.
12.3: Lab, total 5xp on MT.
12.4: Lab, total 7xp on MT.
13.1: Lab texts Art 1 + Art 2 with: 9 + 8 + 1 + 5 + 3 = 26 levels of spells.
13.2: Lab texts Art 1 + Art 2: total 52 levels of spells.
13.3: Lab, total 9xp on MT.
13.4: Lab, total 11xp on MT.
14.1: Lab texts Art 1 + Art 2 with: 9 + 5 + 1 + 5 + 3 = 23 levels, total 75.
14.2: Lab texts Art 2 + Art 3 with: 8 + 5 + 1 + 5 + 3 = 22 levels, total 97.
14.3: Lab, total 13xp on MT.
14.4: Lab, total 15xp on MT.
15.1: Lab texts Art 4 + Art 5 with: 5 + 5 + 1 + 5 + 3 = 19 levels, total 116.
15.2: Lab texts Art 6 + Art 7: total 135 levels of spells.
15.3: Lab, total 17xp on MT.
15.4: Lab, total 19xp on MT.
16.1: Gauntlet, teach Parma.
End result:
Magic Theory: 5, need only 11xp to reach 6.
Arts: one at 9, one at 8, all others at 5. Need 5 more xp for the Art at 9 to reach 10.
135 levels of spells.
I don't think that sounds weak for someone fresh off the gauntlet, especially considering that he has actually had only 2 seasons of teaching...
Looking at things like this, it becomes apparent that mages who use their Apprentices as manual labor are not going to have very competent apprentices compared to those who encourage their apprentices to read!
It seems also rather obvious to me, that there should be a reasonable bonus for having a teacher while you study from a book -- otherwise it really doesn't make sense to teach anything as long as there are books for the apprentice to read.
Also, "all arts at 5" is starting to seem more like a guideline for Gauntlet then taking apprentices...
Cheers,
--d
A neat model except from the fact that the Code requires of the would-be master to teach the apprentice for a season each year.
First your character seems to be a native reader of Latin, which is odd, but that's OK.
I doubt you have played the game, though.
I make this sweeping statement, because its clear you haven't grasped one of the very basics of character design yet. That's OK. My first character had 5 in everything too. The problem is that if you have 5 in everything, what you are saying is that your spells are never much above Level 23 or 13 without fatigue. If you instead design your character properly , you can have spells in the low 40s range with non-fatiguing spells in the mid 30s range in your specialised area.
Specialisations a -good thing-, even if you choose to not specialise in two arts, but, say, four. Spreading evenly through all arts is just bad design.
Even if you were being a generalist, you'd do better to focus on your Techniques, and just cherry-pick your Forms, because there are 5 of one and ten of the other.
An all 5s character's a weakling, except in the cases of all spont magi, which have an argument for really broad generalisation, I suppose.
That's true, in so far as it goes.
Your character doesn't have his House skill, but that's just a quibble really.
That's true. The assumption, you see, is that most magi are not the great teaching superstars that whoever wrote the primers for apprentices are. Teaching's not a good strategy, I agree.
Except you are making your magus a weakling...I'm sorry, but you are trading the ability to cast "Incantation of Lightning" here for 5s in arts you'll never use.
Furion:
I rather deliberately avoided the issue, as books are a superior method of teaching in this case.
Timothy:
Your first assesment is right on the money -- I haven't played Ars, all this is in the progress of gearing up to run it 
.
I skipped latin, assuming that the would-be mage has been handed over to a latin tutor for a few years before the apprenticeship proper begins.
From character design perspective I fully agree that the example was quite unoptimized. However, are freshly gauntleted mages really expected to know even a single level 35 spell -- like Incantation of Lightning?
To learn the spell the apprentice needs a lab total of 35. Aura 5 + Magic Theory 5 + Intelligence 2 = 12, which is probably above average for a pre-gauntlet apprentice, but not really exceptional. 35 - 12 = 23, so you need arts at 11 and 12.
Primer to level 5, one season per Art. Tractatuses (tractati?) to level 8, one season per level per Art. After that, teacher with Com 2 + Teaching 4 + 3 + Single Student 6 = 15, which seems likewise above average but unexceptional. Two seasons of teaching per Art to level 11, one more season to get the other Art to 12.
So you're looking at mininum of 5 seasons of teaching after 8 seasons of reading. Using the same model I used above, that's 9 years worth of seasons after the initial year, so the specialist has only 5 years time to round out his education -- probably spending something like 4 seasons reading more primers in other Arts, which leaves him 3 years to study spells.
Obviously doable, at least given an above average student and an above average teacher, but is this really supposed to be a typical freshly gauntleted mage? (One art at 12, one at 11, four at 5, and others at 0.)
I definitely agree with any sentiment to the effect that all at 5 is rather bland, though, no question about it, and I can very well see why it is greatly preferable for players to create specialized characters -- I just don't see how that would be the norm in Order.
Cheers,
--d
For what it's worth, my saga picked up the "Standard Primers" (Level 5/Quality 15) for all 15 arts, and makes the assumption that every apprentice will have one free season each year of apprenticeship for reading them. We assume the one season of teaching will be spent learning spells from their parens, which leaves two seasons a year for lab assistance. Other Hermetic skills, like Magic Theory, either get filled in as needed or picked up using correspondence. There's no reason for a magus to NOT do correspondence during a season; there's no penalty for corresponding with your apprentice, and a 60 season apprenticeship on Magic Theory gives you a Magic Theory of 5+ assuming you're taking your Exposure experience from your labwork. Not to mention that when it's over you've got 7 new correspondence tractatus ready for binding into a florilegia.
Now, granted, the Flambeau's apprentices tend to skip over the Aquam texts and spend more time on Ignem tractatus, which accounts for specialized vs. generalist magi.
Our game has a standard primer book at 5/15 for each of the techniques. My apprentice has had access to it, as well as certain other texts in the library. I've started pulling her off reading, though, because her stats are getting too high too quickly so far.
Seven years into apprenticeship she has 218 XP in abilities, and 114 in arts*. (And recently got around 90 levels of spells.) My magus is also a season behind on teaching her because life got in the way. (Those pesky crusades.)
We're pretty much stopped letting her read and have been having her do work the magi have been putting off, like translating captured grimoires and the like.
It does make me think there should be more virtues of a "generous parens" sort, which represents additional time in the library or the like.
*This includes her afinity with Terram, and a couple years spent with a non-Hermetic teacher.
Going through this with my own apprentices taught me something in a hurry...
You use an apprentice in the lab...
The higher the Magic Theory, the higher the bonus to your lab total...
My apprentices have higher MT scores than most Magi...by a bit.
I don't see why any magi wouldn't want this. A flambeau just using an apprentice to learn spells or create that wand would still like this bonus..
Curious though...every game I have been in the starting books have been...lower quality than 15...by a bit.
the raw analysis have also missed out some important things.
First are a few necessities that are often taught to apprentices before they start their apprenticeship (at least in non-spring covenants I've had experience with). However, this does contain an element of risk as a Magus has no firm rights over such 'pre-apprentices', so they are also sometimes taught during the early years of apprenticeship.
Speak Latin - to at least Level 4, probably 5 (50-75 xp)
Even children of two Magi are likely to have have at least partially a non-latin 'native' language. A wetnurse/nanny type is surely going to do much of the early raising of such a child - neither parent is likely to want to put aside several years of their valuable time just to raise a child, potential apprentice or not. (?)
Artes Liberales - at least one, maybe two seasons worth
Then there are the first couple of years - there is relatively little advantage in using a green apprentice in the Lab - most apprentices spend considerable time in their first couple of years learning Magic Theory to at least MT 2-3, often more.
Then there are the other skills/abilities/knowledges.
At least one season should be spent on each of the following;
Order of Hermes Lore (what am I joining?)
Code of Hermes (what are the rules)
Penetration
Finesse
Concentration
Possibly profession Scribe
Possibly Philosophiae
Possibly Teaching
The odd spell Mastery may also get chucked into the mix.
Basically, before one gets all excited, it is worth remembering that an apprentice is more than the sum of his Arts, Magic Theory and Spells. He must be able to use his Arts not to clumsily (finesse, concentration and penetration), wisely(relatively, various), have at least a basic understanding of what should and should not be done (and why, OoHLore, OoHLaw/Code), have the rudiments of communicating his own ideas (or copying/receiving others, Latin/Artes Liberales/scribe/teach).
All that said, the XP for starting PC Magi do seem somewhat underpowered compared to almost any actually worked through starting Magi.
Corbon