Creating a confraternity

So...
How do you go about creating a confraternity?
Do you need anything specific, or is it a case of YSMV?

Is it best to have the full set of ini scripts before you start?
Does a confraternity need a unique Inner Inner Mystery (if you see what I mean)?
How do you recruit? Is it a case of advertise and wait or what?

What do people think the political ramifications would be of creating a new confraternity?

K.

From the rest of your post, I'm assuming you are talking about Verditius confraternities :slight_smile:
Basically, you need something that can be shared, such that the cost of sharing it is much less than that of receiving it. Thus, you can ask new members, in compensation, more than you give them and less than they receive from you. Knowledge is the perfect example (costs almost nothing to share and can be worth a lot). Political support can be another, in the right conditions. Lies are yet another classic example (new members think they are getting a lot, but they aren't) but make for a very dangerous game...

It depends. The more "stuff" you have, the more you can entice prospective members. However, you could also build up a confraternity that has nothing but the goal of unearthing new secret knowledge.

Absolutely not. However, monopoly on a secret generally allows you to ask far more in return for it.

Basically, yes, even though "advertising" can take many forms.

Ah, this vastly depends on context. A new confraternity is a new power. Who, or what does it threaten? Who could it help if recruited as an ally? Etc.

Ah, how do you mean? Create one for your game, or create one "in game"? I assume the latter, and for that, no, no formal rules. A confraternity is just a collection of like minded individuals, and friends, after all. No Mystery is required, nor is any "recruiting".

As to Scripts, heck no. In fact, the quest to develop the script is a good way to start the Confraternity. Working in the lab together is probably the primary way that Mages make "best" friends...

A unique Mystery? Heck no. Heck, I don't think any of the canon examples have an unique Mystery. Remember, all the House Mysteries are accessible to all of the House (as opposed to Criamon; pick a path....). The Confraternity gives a public path, is all, as opposed to the ill defined path of "Cult Lore".

Given the House, I don't think there's any Political ramifications. Mind, there will be ramifications, I just think they will be economic. For example, insofar as most of the House "sword" specialists know and like each other (in canon), there will be less price competition. A cartel, if informal. And prices outside the cartel will be more expensive because of the assumption that your attempt to avoid the cartel is because they won't sell to you (for any number of reasons), and are thus a captive audience. They (the Confraternity) are the best, after all. Any Verditius mage can make a magic sword, but the Confraternity of Roland Love swords, have a magic focus in Swords as an expression of that Love. Pride, Skill, and Love all pulling the Mage to make Art!

Sorry, yes, I wasn't clear there.

Huh. I'd been reading that differently. I thought you couldn't get access to the Inner^2 Mysteries unless you were a member of the confraternity that has it.

erm... but we're all price linked by order of the Primus. there's no economic competition, as the base cost of creating an item is what the price is calculated from.

Send a message to Verdi saying "I want a sword that does x" Verdi passes it on to the Roland guys because they may as well make it as it's their thing. Same for magical boats, Verdi passes it on to the mages who enjoy making boats, they then decide who does it amongst themselves based on their available time and materials.
At least, that's how I imagined it! :slight_smile:

K.

As far as I can tell, Saxonous is right.
But the confraternities are still extremely useful - they give you clues to who might have these most secret of mysteries and even more importantly, they provide you a social context for contacting these people.

If you're just another Verditius, you're a rival as much as a collegue - why should I teach you the innermost secrets of my forge?

But if you're a member of my confraternity, well...
There's not all that many of us - we'll probably have had occassion to talk. If you've seemed interesting, perhaps I've kept up with your activities.
I even lent you a book some years ago, that you returned promptly and as agreed - you seem to be a stand-up sort of person who probably won't stab me in the back. Perhaps it is indeed time to share a few secrets with the younger generations - not just anyone mind you, but maybe someone sensible...

Mysteries aren't just elements to bebought and sold if the price is right you know. :wink:

Price is only controlled when selling to Mundanes. Prices between Mages are whatever the market can bear. The Vis price in the book is a useful shorthand when getting "ordinary" items made (yes, they're magic, but we are assuming you could have made it yourself if you had the time, etc.). Getting a Sword made by the Confraternity of Roland is going to cost you extra in some way. Remember, not every member of the House is a member of a Confraternity. Very few members are in more then one. There are probably less then ten members of the CoR in all of Mythic Europe. They are quite, quite busy. It's why I think the political ramifications would not be large (who would have the time?), and it's why the price will be high. You could probably get it for "regular" price, in fifty to seventy five years. You going to wait that long?

It sure looks like it's controlled when selling to magi as well though, when i read HoH: Mc, p. 114.

I kinda wish you were right, a looser price guideline would allow for haggling.

Read it again. Selling to Mundanes is controlled by the Order, selling to other mages is an attempt by the Primus to control a cartel, with no actual means of doing so, and nothing in the "guidelines" covering any Outer or Inner Mysteries that might be used in making the item. Lots of wiggle room, especially now (in canon), given the current weakness of the serving Primus, and his desire to move the location of the Great Contest.....

Let's see.

and then, same page, 7 lines later

(Emphasis added)

Now, I really wish I could see how this left wiggle room and didn't dictate the price charged of magi, but I don't.
Perhaps it is a flaw in my understanding of the words used? (no a native english speaker)

You are reading it correctly, you are just giving too much power to the Primus. The Primus and many in the house would like there to be a standard price, but they don't have the power to get the Order to back them up. So other then calling for Wizard's War against the most powerful members of the House, there is little they can do. What happens, in practice (I think), is that there is a standard price for standard items. Once you get into special items (a sword made by the Confraternity of Roland is going to be amazing, as a rule) then you are going to have to pay a lot more, or they will turn out to "be busy that decade", which, of course, the "standard" doesn't deal with. According to the "standard", a wizard out of gauntlet and an Archmage will be charging the same amount for an item, and the most intelligent people in Europe are ok with that. Yah, right........

Sorry, can we just clarify here...

The RAW state that there is a fixed price, yes?

Yes the roland lot may make an uber-shiny sword,
BUT...
The price for that uber shiny is the same from the CoRoland as it is from CoHiminis.

The fact that CoRoland are the ones who are good with swords doesn't have anything to do with the price, as that is fixed.

Yes the current Primus is.... anyway.

Yes, it's dumb, but so is house Tremere only having magical foci in certamen, and having no option to uograde to a major magical focus.

No, there is nothing in RAW that says there is a standard price for magic items, that I know of. The closest we get is the rule about selling one magic item a year to Mundanes. Heck, even the section in Mystery Houses being used to claim there is a standard price for magic items says otherwise.

"Prices fluctuate over time, influenced by such banal economic factors as supply and demand, availability of raw materials (vis), and inflation. Magi who charge more or less then the current price may incur the anger of other House magi, who typically complain that aberrant prices affect the market as a whole, devaluing their items and hindering their prosperity. The typical response is for an offended magus to declare a vendetta against the price-gouger.". P.115, Mystery Cults.

If there really was a standard price, they would not fluctuate, yes? If there was a formal rule against changing the price, then breaking that rule would involve more then the chance of a vendetta.

Vespasian quoted the page up above, I thought it was pretty clear there. I'll have to wait until I'm at my books again to verify though.

Why would availability of vis affect the price? Plus... if price gouging is charging other than the CURRENT price, this implies that the price can change. That is not being argued. ((2×X)+X) becomes (((2×X)+X)-1) is simply changing the formula. No problem. If we say that the current price formula is the STANDARDISED price, then the standardised price can change, which makes p115 true as well as p114.

Anyone else think that maybe the House Verditius chapter needs some editing for clarity?
I thought it was fairly simple, but dear gods! I've been reading the archived threads on the whole Inner Inner Mystery stuff and it doesn't look like anyone managed to find an actual value of true to suit everyone!

K.
~All things are true, for a given value of true.

Sorry, hate to do this but I have to introduce a little logic into this discussion.

"by Saxonous » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:54 pm
You are reading it correctly, you are just giving too much power to the Primus. The Primus and many in the house would like there to be a standard price, but they don't have the power to get the Order to back them up."
Above you agreed with vespasian and said that there was a standardised price, now you say there isn't.

Sorry again, but I have to run from the RAW here. If those rules are badly in need of clarification then so be it.

The thing is, we are waaaaay off topic here, someone want to start the
"HoH:MC - House Verditius pricing argument [CrIg Warning]"
thread? That way everyone can see it and join in/avoid as they wish. :wink:

K.

Not quite. There is a difference between a "rule of thumb" and an actually, enforceable Rule, and the current "double vis" is a rule of thumb, which the Primus would like to see become an actual rule. Again P.115 of Mystery Cults is quite clear that the prices vary, and that the only recourse is a Vendetta. Not a single mention of House action or Order action.....

rule of thumb, in character Rule, what I was interested in was the game mechanic rule. But hey ho.