Creating Advanced Magi?

I'd certainly agree that Intelligence is worthwhile, principally as you state for the benefit to Lab Total. I would say that Stamina is really important too, however.

The small bonus to your Casting Total from Stamina is OK, but not that wonderful, except in the relatively rare situation where you are casting spells that have a small chance of Penetrating. Usually, in my experience, you either cannot (or do not need to) Penetrate with your spells, or are easily able to Penetrate. However if Penetration is a bit marginal, but doable, then having an extra point or two of Stamina can really make the difference between hoping that you roll a 1 on the stress die, and having a decent chance.

Where Stamina really counts is Soak and Certamen.

Now I realize that you can cast spells that increase your Soak, and you can of course try to completely avoid situations that require you to Soak damage, but if you have a character that intends to get in the way of damage having heaps of Stamina is fantastic. Particularly for young(ish) magi who don't have the ability to cast a wide range of defensive spells either formulaic or spontaneous, particularly when standing in a hostile aura.

The place of Stamina in the Certamen Resistance Total means that a high Stamina character can be great at Certamen. Now, of course the importance of this depends on how often your characters use Certamen. For example, my magus character, in my current saga, is sort of accidentally really good at Certamen because of his high Stamina Score (he has a high Stamina Score because he is designed to beat people up). Although he is not really exceptional at any Arts, he wins most Certamen matches against his sodales and similar age magi, simply because his Resistance Total is about twice everyone elses.

So, I would say that from a pure power point of view Intelligence and Stamina are the two most useful characteristics. Which is the most useful depends on the type of character and the type of story you want your character to excel in. And, of course, it is not compulsory to have either characteristic particularly high. You can make a perfectly good magus with relatively modest characteristics, and playing a magus with bad characteristics can be heaps of fun too.

I think that the problem with this is that if these assumptions get you many, many extant books, then books can hardly be rare or particularly valuable. Why would anybody want to write a new tractatus about Ignem, when there are apparently hundreds of easily available books already written than can just be copied? Given that one of your assumptions is that books are valuable enough to warrant blowing many pawns of vis on rituals to increase your Com to +5, this seems a bit problematic.

However, I don't think that 12,500 books actually goes that far. Note that 12,500 books, say half are lost, leaves 6,250 books. If half of the extant books are about non-Arts (Order of Hermes Lore, Finesse, Penetration, Parma Magica, Faerie Lore, Mystery Cult Nonsense, etc), then that only leaves 3,125 books about Arts, or 208 unique books about each Art. Which given an Order of about 700 magi, and say 100 covenants, is only an average of about 2 unique books per covenant about each Art --- which is not that many. It means that to get access to a large number of high quality books about a particular Art a magus either needs to live somewhere with an abnormally large library (like Durenmar), or trade quite a lot both within (and probably without) his Tribunal. It's not quite the case that lots of different high quality books are just lying around everywhere.

Hi,

Exactly.

Well, not exactly. Not quite hogwash, more that the rules don't play well together, that applying one set of rules logically and reasonably yields results that are not compatible with other rules and fluff. There's a lot of this in AM; regarding books there has been ever since Twilight was introduced in an AM2 supplement (laughs at myself and I wrote about the inconsistency back then too.)

The core rules for establishing a library allow for magnificent libraries--and for the same amount of build points, they also allow for completely pathetic libraries, with hundreds of tractatatati at Quality 1. (For 450 points, for example, I can have a q15/l15 summa in every art. I can also have 450 useless tractati.)

Of course, while we're here, who needs Redcaps when a lvl35 spell or item lets a magus traverse Europe? For that matter, who needs all those Tribunals when any magus of sufficient power or means can bamf to Grand Tribunal? (And for two magnitudes more, a Mercere can bamf from covenant to covenant, using a Group version of the spell or item to teleport magi who cannot do it themselves....)

Anyway,

Ken

Hi,

There is little demand for yet another summa, but good tractati are always welcome, up to, say, 60 per Art. I don't think there's much need for lots of Quality 15 tractati if there are many Q12s, but I suspect that Q10-Q12 are common.

That said, I think the library rules are a mess. Not quite a botch, but a mess.

Ideally, one writes a summa to become an Authority on a subject; this rarely happens and requires a breakthrough of some kind, representing a unique perspective that supplants what has come before, or makes room for some new necessarys ideas. A summa that fails to do this might still be useful because it contains the same information as the authoritative source and can therefore serve as a substitute, but cannot be better.

The bulk of writing serves as a kind of conversation among scholars, elucidating, expanding, extending, amplifying and nitpicking. From this perspective, new tractati are always welcome. A large library might have many old books that are less useful because the conversation has moved on.

The rules don't model this at all, and perhaps deliberately.

Anyway,

Ken

Again back to the RAW on average tractatus quality. The example folio listed has two tractati. One quality 8 and another quality 10. This is spposed to represent the most significant output of the order over a seven year period... if quality 8 is crap in your sage then these volumes really aint offering much.

I cannot help but feel that ArM suffers from players looking at a list of virtues and seeing rare gifts as normal becaues they are disproportiontely useful in gameplay for their cost at startup. I live in a saga where magi are generally poor communicators, tending to shu the outside world, where ritualistic magic of allegedly awesome power within the cult of mercury is astoundingly rare and vis is not handed out like the pocket money of a spoilt rich kid. Mages with commincation of +5 and good teacher are of artistotlean magnitude as teachers & scholars, that this is common is rubbish, that it even exists at any given moment in time should be very unlikely...

You miss my point. I am not saying this is comon at all. What I am saying is that this guy is the one whose books I want to read. More effort will go into copying and distributing his work that that of another author with Com +2, and no one will really bother at all to copy the work of an author with a com of -2.

Hi,

They aren't offering much. There is a lot of weirdness in HoH:TL, and the folio isn't the worst of it. (The spells in the Guernicus section are, imnvho. The Bonisagus section of that book is a failure that just missed being a botch, and the Guernicus section is a triple botch plus a bad Twilight experience.)

But the folios. It is trivially easy to get better texts than this if magi want to. It doesn't take many magi either. A single determined magus in an order where no one else wants to write books can, over his lifetime, utterly transform the landscape, by writing good books himself and reaping the rewards of their sale/rental, and by training apprentices who are equally dedicated to this endeavor. And why shouldn't there be such a magus? If I can figure out how to do it, surely one of those brilliant magi with Int +5 can do it. And best of all, if he's a Tremere, he can command other magi to get behind his plan. (You think House Tremere wouldn't launch a literacy program of this kind, if only for their House?) A Bonisagus doesn't have the organization, but he can simply take that articulate apprentice and raise him to write.

I'm not saying the game should be designed so that it makes more sense for level 14 tractati to be common than for level 8 tractati. I am saying that this happens to be the case.

(Of course, many sagas (and game campaigns across all systems) suffer from one of the cardinal flaws: All the NPCs must be stupid, except when their being hyper-intelligent makes railroading easier. So the PCs get to do things that make sense, and the NPC clods don't.)

Anyway,

Ken

I support The Restless Kaiser with the assumption that Comm +5 , Good teachers are rare - I've already said here that I assume there only about a dozen magi at any one time with this combination out of 1000...1.2%...but I agree with Marko and Ovarwa that such individuals will 'pump out' a disproportionately large number of texts - maybe for the benefit of others, but mostly for their own wealth and benefit. HoH:TL or guardians of the forest discusses how magi that supply good texts to durenmar are given preferential treatment when it comes to having access to the Great Library - a massive incentive to contribute as their is no better source of lab texts for rare spells, enchantments or arcane abilities (which are costly to increase).

As to the Tremere - I consider them to be second only to Durenmar is there collection of texts - and unlike durenmar will value Communication over Intelligence - my current list of 10 authros of the 13th cent include 2 Tremere (bonisagus being the only other house to have 2 individuals), ones a Flawless Magic mage writing spell mastery tractatus, supported completely by his house (resides at Coeris, even without holding his own sigil), and has regular access to Durenmar for his contributions. The other is a Linguist making a study of spoken languages and publishing/teaching them, again useful for the house that values logistics and reliability.

Finally, from this thread it does seem that I view the Order as slightly more cohesive than The Restless Kaiser and some others - prehaps due to the fact that my first saga, every magi was required to devote 1 season per year to covenant work (which seems to be excessive going my these boards)...

Kal

Hi,

Bingo.

So there's this one guy with an awesome tractatus in, say, Ignem, and he charges 1 pawn for the right to read it. He'll let anyone read it, for one pawn. If you're a Flambeau, or some other magus who cares about Ignem, that's cheap, right? He'll sell the full rights to the tractatus for 30 pawns of vis; he shows up at Tribunal with 15 copies of his text. Still cheap.

So, the archmagi go off and read their shiny books and then these books are given pride of place in the most esteemed covenants in Europe. A few seasons later, they want more, because you can never have too much Ignem. So they corner the author and demand more books about Ignem. He'd love to oblige, he explains, but his Ignem score is only 5, and his pathetic Spring covenant has a Restless Kaiser library rather than a Markoko library, with level 3 summae and level 7 tractati. Now, if you're one of these archmagi from one of the great covenants, doesn't it serve your interest to sit this magus down in front of your very best Ignem summa, have him read for a few seasons and then write two more tractati, for which you will gladly pay the same amount as last time? You might even pay him to do this, especially if there's this other group of magi who want him to write about some useless gay Art like Imaginem.

Makes sense, yes?

So now, magi see that writing can pay big time, and want a piece of the action. So other magi with good Communication start to publish. Masters start to value potential apprentices who might make good authors, even if they lack elsewhere. After all, if a bunch of archmagi think you're a treasure of the Order, you don't need to be personally very powerful to be highly influential. (And then there's the vain magus who is willing to pay for this author to write his biography....)

The price of awesome books falls, of course, but writing remains extremely worthwhile; even if there isn't enough vis to go around, an author who can publish his awesome tractatus in exchange for a little vis plus a few years' worth of other magi's awesome tractati plus a great reputation within the Order is still doing well.

The pressure is to have more, not fewer good books out there. In order to not have this happen, NPCs either must be run as idiots or anyone who tries this gets punished with blue lightning bolts from the sky, or some 'subtle' GM action of similar kind. (Even for magi, writing a book remains one of the best ways to be remembered for a long time.)

Again, I'm not saying that the game should be designed so that having great books makes sense. I am saying that this is currently the case.

Anyway,

Ken

Hi,

nod It doesn't take many to change the landscape.

Anyway,

Ken

It also doesn't help that all books come with a catalogue card & abstract informing the reader of exactly how useful they will be once read. I don't know about you, but Itend to find reviews useful but hardly insightful as to the exact level of knowlwedge I will have accumulated upoin reading them.

It is an intere4sting world where a reader can handle two books on an indentical subject and instictively 'know' from which he will learn more... but that is a ide issue.

I also am starting to feel guilty about hijacking this thread with a 'lets talk about libraries' theme... sorry about that.

Hi,

Libraries play a key role in advancement, so it makes sense.

I had thought about the issue of knowing in advance how useful a book will be. But one doesn't need to read a book to get an idea of this. First, books often have reputations. True, medieval folks couldn't read reviews on amazon.com, yet there were also far fewer books, so the ones that mattered were usually known and talked about. Second, I've noticed that spending a few minutes with a book can tell me more than a little about it; I don't need to spend an entire season.

Now, books having a precise score that is known... yes, that's not realistic. I don't know how many xps I received from "The C Programming Language," for example. Then again, I also don't know my combat stats or my soak or anything else. On the other hand, I have something that's usually better: A real sense of the world I live in. PCs have to make due on what gets filtered to them through a few words by the GM.

Anyway,

Ken

Who cares much about the casting bonus of Stamina? Its a nice bonus though.

Hmm, but i think i may have managed to mix up HR with RAW despite specifically trying to avoid it... If Sta isnt included in Aging rolls by RAW, maybe move it down a step or two... :mrgreen:
The soak and all is still highly desirable though.
Which is why we have Int provide its value in bonus XP per year, making it very desirable for labrats or others getting most their XP from exposure...

When they stumble into something they failed to notice or anticipate. Or if they get ambushed.
You have a far too nice SG if nothing ever happens that requires rapid reaction.

That it will exist at any given time is actually fairly likely thanks to the ability to enhance Com with rituals(they´re not THAT hugely expensive in vis). But sure, there might not be alot of them around.
Com 2 or 3 and GT however probably will be relatively common, so quality 9-12 probably will be the norm for what is widely distributed.

Hi,

Let's see. I think we can agree that Str is a great dump stat for most magi. Since we're optimizing, let's take it at -3, for 6 points, leaving 13 points to play with. Dex is also a decent dump stat for most magi, though less good than Str. 19 points now. :slight_smile: We now have six stats remaining, each of which has something important to offer. Qik is important for going first, unless you don't even know what's coming, so Per surely also matters. Int shows up in all sorts of interesting rolls and totals, as does Sta. An extra point or two on a casting total never hurts, especially if it also grants Soak. Pre is good for initiation, Com is good for writing, and both are good for socializing, which makes both Pre and Com the most valuable stats at Tribunal, where casting totals don't help much.

Dumping Str and Dex lets us take everything else at +2, with one point left over. Is it worth taking one of these to +3 and one to +1? Probably. Which? I think it depends on your character concept. Is it then worth taking one of the remaining +2s to 0 whereby to raise another to +3? Maybe. A character already resigned to suck at anything social can trash Pre and possibly Com. Int and Sta are harder to justify trashing; they play into the bread and butter of most magi. I think Per is more useful than Qik for dealing with confrontations: Per + ought to tell a magus that something is likely to happen even before Qik comes into play. (Per + Awareness is useful for so many things.)

So which totals matter most? Fast Casters like their Qik, but like Puissant Finesse even more. But magi will always lose initiative to warriors in AM5. Lightning Reflexes helps more than bumping Qik from +2 to +3. Int 3 is probably not as good for a lab rat as Int 2 plus Puissant Magic Theory. Of course, a dedicated lab rat might have Int 5, Inventive Genius, Puissant MT, Affinity with MT and cyclic magic (seasonal).

Hmm. It occurs to me that seasonal cyclic magic is a fantastic virtue that is sorely overlooked. +3 to all magic for half the year means that a magus will strive to read during his normal seasons, and either adventure or work in the lab for his good seasons. Technically, it can only be taken once, but some SGs might allow it to be taken multiple times, for different cycles: A solar magus might have a +3 during spring and summer, and another +3 during the day. Lab activities only get a +3.... but it's also reasonable for such a magus to take the virtue twice, for +3 during spring and autumn and +6 during the summer. Add a touch of Faerie Blood to further associate the character with summer, give him an evil twin nemesis with the same virtues but attuned to winter....

So there are many virtues that are more useful than getting an extra +1 to a stat using Great Characteristic or Extra Characteristics to raise a +2 to a +3. Since character points can be shifted without needing a virtue, however, why not have both?

grin And now we're talking about optimizing in general, rather than advanced magi. considers For older magi, Int loses value as Arts soar. Sta also loses value for casting, for the same reason, but retains value for Soak and when used with skills. Yeah, I think to generalize, Int loses value against other stats as a magus gains experience.

Anyway,

Ken

I'm curious ... what specifically makes you say so?

To pitch in with my two mythic cents here:
I like many of the Guernicus spells, along with some of the spell masteries. I'd use them in a heartbeat with other character concepts and houses as well.

I like some of the spell from Guernicus section as well - Aura of Inconsequence being a favourite.

not to derail things too much - but with what Ovarwa was saying about cyclic magic with a lab rat - what about a cyclic (day) magus - as all lab work is assumed to be during the day, would you always recieve that bonus on lab totals?

Kal

Never overlooked any more! :wink:
Dont overlook the value of having cyclic magic with the bonus during daytime or nighttime (depending on your preferred work hours) ... :smiling_imp:

Definitely.

Usually no.

Since its always active while you´re working, at least i cant see why not.
And then you take negative cyclic during nighttime, or the other way around for both, either can make for really nice characters.

I would say NO. You might be sleeping, but your magic is still "working" even outside your direct attention. The RAW explicitly says that "the bonus applies to Lab totals if the positive part of the cycle covers the whole season". I think The Mysteries confirms it somewhere when talking about Hermetic Astrology (Noble's Parma).

On the other hand I do recall seeing somewhere (possibly an older edition?) some talk about urban covenants having Magic Auras come up at night, when the Dominion is weaker, with magi becoming nocturnal to benefit from it... which might provide something of a counterpoint.

Ovarwa, are you calling Imaginem a "gay" Art because you literally associate Imaginem with homosexuality? Or are you using the word "gay" as a generic derogative term? I certainly object to the latter.