Creo rituals

Hi sodales,

I have a big question for you and if you suscribe to the POV of my alphaSG (me being a betaSG) a second one.

  1. My storyguide is not of the same opinion than me, and i must say i can't afford his opinion on the matter of creo rituals to corpus, all the debate is about size.

His point is that a +2 character needs always, but only for Creo spells, a +1 size magnitude CrCo spell.
He says, in fact, that the "modification" of the essential nature is not enough because the spell is targetting a 0 body belonging to a real +2 body.

My point is that if a +2 character is muCo'd in a 0 size body, a CrCo ritual can be applied to him with success and usefulness.
I take like source some text from the corebook: Creo and targets frame, size and targets frame, Creo magic.
For me, the spell is designed wich a target defining what is affected by the spell. But the effect of the spell is not affected by the actual/essential size, only by the description of the guideline used or the spell's one.

I also use the limit of creation + limit of essential nature to say that creo doesn't violate the essential nature, and that a spell has to affect the "present nature" not the essential.
Indeed, it seems to me that the limit of essential nature is a barrier to muto permanent spells. Not to say that a spell has to affect it to affect the person.

So with a muto size change, i only modify my size, being able to receive a normal CrCo. Then the creo corpus ritual permanently modify my essential nature (in any characteristic).
Then, the muto can stop. But i will not lose my new essential nature in characteristics, because the muto spell has no influence on this.

  1. I really think i'm right.
    But, if i'm wrong (... so bad after all the debate !!!), his point has for consequences that all spells applying to Corpus to a +2 body needs to have +1 magnitude for size, even if the magus is in fact muto'd in a 0 body.

In my POV, it's all the one, or all the other, but not intermediate!

Can you help?
I sincerely think i'm right. It's not about me, but about the RAW. And i definitely want some coherent system. And i think my POV more coherent than his...

This is an interesting question. As far as I know no official ruling has ever been made on this, but my opinion is as follows:

Your storyguide is correct in that a base individual for Corpus is Size +1.

Normally, I'd rule as he does that any enchantments end when the character reverts to his true size, but in the case of a Creo Ritual, the effects of the spell are non-magical.

I suppose your SG is of the opinion that the Muto effect doesn't actually change your size and that you're still a +2 character in a small guy suit.

Personally, I'd tend to side with you, but unfortunately I don't have anything particular convincing. I'll check A&A later and get back to you though...

At least that, i can say that no it doesnt.

Yes it is. We have added a houserule based on permanent Creo spell rules to "fix" this.

Despite what i have said above, i cant say for certain if you´re right or wrong...

If virtues and flaws are essential natures, because of incrasead characteristics being a virtue (and decreased a flaw), I think that a +1 strength CrCo spell (the kind of spell about which is the debate ^^) modifies the essential nature. But it's not the central point, and if i'm wrong... okay^^

Well, that's not quite so, in canon. Essential nature seems to include the range of "possible", which is why you can increase a stat to +5, but no further. +6 and higher are superhuman and thus change the essential nature of the target, and is impossible because of the inability of Hermetic Magic to change same permanently.

I've edited my first post to take account of your remarks.

Let's back to the main purpose of the post, then? :smiley:

I can sympathise with your SG on this point. You are still Size +2, even though you currently are exhibiting the dimensions and weight (and other differentia) of a Size 0 person. However, note that healing has nothing to do with Essential Nature - no spells can affect that anyway. Magical healing provokes/speeds the natural faculty of the body.

I don't think there is a simple answer. For example, if a magus turned into an animal with a spell, and took a wound which was then healed with a CrAn ritual, then I would expect that wound to still be healed when the magus resumed his natural form. So why shouldn't this be true of a size change?

However, if a magus used a MuCo to grow an extra arm, and that arm was wounded; would you expect the wound to be transferred when the spell wears off? What if the extra arm was subsequently healed with magic?

I agree with you here. To affect a +2 Size, all Corpus spells need a +1 magnitude. This is an advantage of the Giant Blood Virtue (your opponent's standard Co spells won't work), but balanced by the disadvantage of your allies's spells suffering the same restriction.

We've actually managed to partially duck this issue in our saga. We decided that healing rituals (wounds or diseases) should be Target Part, since the wounded or diseased section is a part of the individual. To balance this, all instant healing guidelines are a magnitude lower, so the spells are the same level overall. The Part target has a maximum size of a standard Corpus Individual, but that's fine for healing - in general only fatal wounds reach the maximum size allowed for T:Part, even for a Size +2 character. This means that regardless of the current size of the wounded character, the spell will still work.

(Spells that improve Recovery Rolls are still T: Ind, since they affect the whole body's ability to heal.)


I also don't think the answer is simple. But I'd tend to agree with you on this because it seems to fit the rest of the rules better. First, the essential nature part seems to be that you can always be affected by things going after your true Form. For example, a magus under a CrCo(An) effect can be affected by Animal (because he is now an animal) and by Corpus (his essential nature). Second, I don't believe Size is essential, but drastic changes in it are certainly unnatural. Thus for me, the spell must affect your current Size and it cannot see your true Size.


Another points of view?

With my SG we agreed on his POV but in the negative (Creo rituals :frowning:) AND the positive (for my magus) (PeCo ind doesn't work against me :smiley:).

But i'm interested by posts like the lasts here.