Defending your Covenant

[KevinSchultz]

Re: the RAW - my issue is with the description of the second case. To me, it sounds like the first case is describing the magus creating the circle (with the concentration check). The second is describing the magus simply tracing the circle (without a concentration check.)

Because if you need a concentration check for both, the rules are identical - and thus there's no reason to split out the two possibilities. Alternately, the author would say "If the circle already exists, the magus can trace out the circle. However, all other rules, including the need for the Concentration effect, still apply."

But it doesn't say that - it just says you need to trace it out. Admittedly, the rules COULD be simply confirming that you don't need to physically gouge a ring into your stone floor in order to cast a Ring effect: the permanent inlaid ring is enough. (and I certainly agree.) But the fact that it doesn't mention the Concentration roll, to me, makes it unfortunately unclear.

Re: the Concentration roll itself - I actually don't have too much of a problem with that, as the scenario I'm describing is not stressful - that is, it's being done well away from the actual location of the covenent, no one is trying to shoot the magus with an arrow, etc. - As casting magic is not, by definition, a stressful situation, it falls under the standard rules for defining a stress roll. Which means as long as your magi has an Int+Concentation of at least 6, there's not going to be a failure.

And if the GM is going to say "no, something that large is going to be stressful" - well, OK. If that was the case, then the magi would know how large something would have to be before they started rolling for stress - which your solution (using the Concentration rules) would likely indicate: 15 minutes/level of Concentration.

Which, actually, is pretty big. 10 paces/turn = 5 feet/second = 4500 feet per level of concentration. Which is probably more than enough to cover a whole covanent. A magus with Concentration(spellcasting) is going to be able to cover a 9k circumference circle, which has a radius of ~1400 feet. Again, that's pretty darned big.

Re: breaking the ring - sure, that seems to be an issue. But in this particular scenario, the ring itself is being prepared well away from the covenent, using a ReVi delay effect. If the demon were to come out and try to break the ring, it will have to both know that it is being done, and will have to leave the covanent to do so. But getting the demon out of the covanent is the point of the effect anyway, so that's actually a success.

[Tugdual]

@KevinSchultz

Because if you need a concentration check for both, the rules are identical - and thus there's no reason to split out the two possibilities. Alternately, the author would say "If the circle already exists, the magus can trace out the circle. However, all other rules, including the need for the Concentration effect, still apply."

You could go the opposite way. Differences have to be spelt out, which I believe is saner.

[Jonathan.Link]

@KevinSchultz

Re: the RAW - my issue is with the description of the second case. To me, it sounds like the first case is describing the magus creating the circle (with the concentration check). The second is describing the magus simply tracing the circle (without a concentration check.)

I don't consider them cases, to use your term. Sometimes circles exist, sometimes they don't. Whether or not the circle already exists doesn't have any effect on the fact that you may be casting a non ritual spell for more than a round, so a concentration roll for this is reasonable, if it isn't being cast ceremonially.

@KevinSchultz

[stuff deleted]
Re: the Concentration roll itself - I actually don't have too much of a problem with that, as the scenario I'm describing is not stressful - that is, it's being done well away from the actual location of the covenent, no one is trying to shoot the magus with an arrow, etc. - As casting magic is not, by definition, a stressful situation, it falls under the standard rules for defining a stress roll. Which means as long as your magi has an Int+Concentation of at least 6, there's not going to be a failure.

I don't understand how this is defending the covenant, if the demon exists within the covenant, and the spell is being cast elsewhere. I'm missing something there. Regardless, no, the EF for the concentration roll isn't that high. Magi tend not to invest a lot into concentration, though, unless it's their concept, so it's probably not assured.

@KevinSchultz

And if the GM is going to say "no, something that large is going to be stressful" - well, OK. If that was the case, then the magi would know how large something would have to be before they started rolling for stress - which your solution (using the Concentration rules) would likely indicate: 15 minutes/level of Concentration.

If it's stressful, I'd be inclined to say you are distracted, in which case the continuing roll is every two minutes.

@KevinSchultz

Which, actually, is pretty big. 10 paces/turn = 5 feet/second = 4500 feet per level of concentration. Which is probably more than enough to cover a whole covanent. A magus with Concentration(spellcasting) is going to be able to cover a 9k circumference circle, which has a radius of ~1400 feet. Again, that's pretty darned big.

Depends, a covenant with a conventional Aegis is pretty small. A standard Aegis covers 100 a bounded space of 100 paces in diameter, which is a circumferenace of 314 paces. It's not large. If any of your buildings are outside of that location, then I, as the demon/SG, am existing outside of that boundary, to cause harm there.

@KevinSchultz

Re: breaking the ring - sure, that seems to be an issue. But in this particular scenario, the ring itself is being prepared well away from the covenent, using a ReVi delay effect. If the demon were to come out and try to break the ring, it will have to both know that it is being done, and will have to leave the covanent to do so. But getting the demon out of the covanent is the point of the effect anyway, so that's actually a success.

I still don't understand how you're moving the ring to the covenant while keeping it intact. Whether or not you're going to be successful in this endeavor is a function more of the SG, rather than a strict interpretation of the rules.

[KevinSchultz]

@Jonathan.Link

I don't understand how this is defending the covenant, if the demon exists within the covenant, and the spell is being cast elsewhere. I'm missing something there. Regardless, no, the EF for the concentration roll isn't that high. Magi tend not to invest a lot into concentration, though, unless it's their concept, so it's probably not assured.

It's more of an issue that it's an Int roll, and the magi in question has an Int of +5, Concentration (Spells) +2.

The effect is delayed using a standard ReVi "delay cast" effect. (Gen ability: create a magical "container" that puts a spell on a timer. You cast the spell into the "container". When the timer runs out, the spell is let out, and it takes effect.) So, you cast the spell on the ring, move the ring over to the covenant, and when the timer runs out the spell goes off.

Depends, a covenant with a conventional Aegis is pretty small. A standard Aegis covers 100 a bounded space of 100 paces in diameter, which is a circumferenace of 314 paces. It's not large. If any of your buildings are outside of that location, then I, as the demon/SG, am existing outside of that boundary, to cause harm there.

The issue is that the demon is inside the Aegis (it got let in by a PC, thinking that it was a fairie). Even when its permission was revoked, it is still inside the Aegis, causing mischief. So if it saw the ring coming, and decided to leave the Aegis, that would be considered a success. (It's a lvl 20 demon, and the Aegis is lvl 25 - so it can't penetrate the Aegis by itself once it is outside. But with permission, it got in, and was able to stay in. But once it leaves, the full-powered aegis can keep it out again.)

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

@KevinSchultz

It's a lvl 20 demon, and the Aegis is lvl 25 - so it can't penetrate the Aegis by itself once it is outside. But with permission, it got in, and was able to stay in. But once it leaves, the full-powered aegis can keep it out again.)

Don't forget that, even with the change to to the Target, you're still going to need a Casting Total of at least 30 to affect the demon once. And if you're hitting it with a Level 10 DEO, you're going to have to hit it twice to destroy it.

[Jonathan.Link]

@KevinSchultz

The effect is delayed using a standard ReVi "delay cast" effect. (Gen ability: create a magical "container" that puts a spell on a timer. You cast the spell into the "container". When the timer runs out, the spell is let out, and it takes effect.) So, you cast the spell on the ring, move the ring over to the covenant, and when the timer runs out the spell goes off.

I'm still not getting it. I think the approach is flawed. This isn't casting DEO with a circle target. DEO with a circle target affects everything within the circle at the time it is cast. And suppressing spells is supposed to work with spells that have a duration greater than momentary...

Why not just find it and kill it with DEO, or does no one know it?

[KevinSchultz]

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

@KevinSchultz

It's a lvl 20 demon, and the Aegis is lvl 25 - so it can't penetrate the Aegis by itself once it is outside. But with permission, it got in, and was able to stay in. But once it leaves, the full-powered aegis can keep it out again.)

Don't forget that, even with the change to to the Target, you're still going to need a Casting Total of at least 30 to affect the demon once. And if you're hitting it with a Level 10 DEO, you're going to have to hit it twice to destroy it.

Yep - the minimum casting total is 34 + penetration + die roll, so it's got a minimum penetration of 24.

I'm still not getting it. I think the approach is flawed. This isn't casting DEO with a circle target. DEO with a circle target affects everything within the circle at the time it is cast. And suppressing spells is supposed to work with spells that have a duration greater than momentary...

It's not a suppression, it's a delay. The two effects are different, and are discussed separately in the Rego Vim Guidelines call-out on AM5 pg. 161.

"Sustain or suppress a spell you have cast whose leel is less than the level +2 magnitudes of the Vim spell."

"Create a conduit or container for spells with level less than the level +5 magnitudes of the Vim spell. A conduit puts you in mystical contact with the target (effective Touch range), while a container will hold a spell for a specific length of time before releasing it."

It's one of the examples in the ReVi section that does NOT have an example spell associated with it. The other being "Sustain or suppress a spell cast by another with level less than half the (level +5 magnitudes) of the Vim spell.

Why not just find it and kill it with DEO, or does no one know it?

It's hiding insubstantially, but it (like most demons) can phase in and out at will (expenditure of 1 point of Magic Might). And while there are two characters in the covenant with Sense Holy/Unholy, the difficulty is high enough that it's not a reliable way to hunt down a demon. And, as it's insubstantial and invisible, the magi can't target it except with Room or structure-based effects unless he knows almost exactally where the demon is. (Plus, the demon can just phase through the floor if it sees the magus coming.) This whole scenario is his attempt to deal with the demon once and for all.

[Jonathan.Link]

@KevinSchultz

It's not a suppression, it's a delay. The two effects are different, and are discussed separately in the Rego Vim Guidelines call-out on AM5 pg. 161.

"Sustain or suppress a spell you have cast whose leel is less than the level +2 magnitudes of the Vim spell."

"Create a conduit or container for spells with level less than the level +5 magnitudes of the Vim spell. A conduit puts you in mystical contact with the target (effective Touch range), while a container will hold a spell for a specific length of time before releasing it."

It's one of the examples in the ReVi section that does NOT have an example spell associated with it. The other being "Sustain or suppress a spell cast by another with level less than half the (level +5 magnitudes) of the Vim spell.

Yeah, I missed that guideline, because it is kind of buried. That being said, I think you're over thinking this.

Why not just find it and kill it with DEO, or does no one know it?

@KevinSchultz

It's hiding insubstantially, but it (like most demons) can phase in and out at will (expenditure of 1 point of Magic Might). And while there are two characters in the covenant with Sense Holy/Unholy, the difficulty is high enough that it's not a reliable way to hunt down a demon. And, as it's insubstantial and invisible, the magi can't target it except with Room or structure-based effects unless he knows almost exactally where the demon is. (Plus, the demon can just phase through the floor if it sees the magus coming.) This whole scenario is his attempt to deal with the demon once and for all.

Here's what I would do. Have the grogs dig and/or lay bricks in a circle that circumscribes the Aegis. Then take the caster of the DEO outside of the Aegis, make him well protected with grogs and another magus, perhaps, and have him start casting the DEO. I think that technically, the MuVi to change the subsequent spell to T:Circle from T:Ind comes first, and then the DEO comes next, but regardless, the demon should be familiar with enough Latin to understand Perdo Vim spell that targets infernal agents being cast, and he has 32 rounds to act. You're calling the demon's bluff here. In order to act, he has to leave the Aegis, which is the point. If he doesn't leave, he gets PeVi'd back to hell. The risk is that the magus casting DEO has to be willing to absorb a botch in the event the demon decides to act. Note, the text says the spell automatically botches, so I wouldn't impose more than 1 warping point[1]. Easy, peasy, lemon squeezy. Either outcome expels the demon from the Aegis, either he leaves to disrupt the spell, or he stays in and is destroyed in repeated castings of this modified DEO.

[1]One might argue that the MuVi introduces some additional complexity and it would impose another botch die, if the subsequent DEO is botched. So there is a 10% chance that the magus might have to check for Twilight, because he gains more than 1 warping point as a result of the spell (I'd consider this one effect). Botching here isn't as bad as you think, if the character is young. The odds for Young PCs often favor a positive Twilight experience. When I say young, I mean below 50 years post gauntlet, when they have lower warping scores. One could argue that it is two separate botches, too, but even then the cost is two warping points, at best. Probably worth it if the desired outcome is expelling the demon from the Aegis.

[werebore (Dominick)]

I would side with the nobility. If you entrench yourself into noble society as a court wizards and move the covenant into the castles owned by said nobles you make yourself incredibly hard to get at without they violating the code. What noble wouldn't want there own personal wizard to help them to destroy their enemies and give them power? So hide from the order by hiding in the code itself. They can only get to you if they are willing to interfere with mundanes and thus being marched themselves. If they do manage to kill you they are likely to raise the ire of nobility and possibly have war declared on them regardless of the circumstances. They would have to find a truly careful way of offing you without the knowledge of your murder being traced back to the Order.

[Jonathan.Link]

@werebore

I would side with the nobility. If you entrench yourself into noble society as a court wizards and move the covenant into the castles owned by said nobles you make yourself incredibly hard to get at without they violating the code. What noble wouldn't want there own personal wizard to help them to destroy their enemies and give them power? So hide from the order by hiding in the code itself. They can only get to you if they are willing to interfere with mundanes and thus being marched themselves. If they do manage to kill you they are likely to raise the ire of nobility and possibly have war declared on them regardless of the circumstances. They would have to find a truly careful way of offing you without the knowledge of your murder being traced back to the Order.

Of course, doing this is itself a violation of the code...

@Ars Magica 5th Edition

The clause forbidding interference with mundanes is probably the most controversial clause in the Code. Covenants have to deal with mundanes repeatedly in order to exist, and fortified dwellings containing substantial numbers of warriors tend to draw the attention of local nobles. As a result, the second half of the sentence, “and thereby bring ruin on my sodales,” is brought into most debates. As long as dealings with mundanes do not harm other magi, nor seem likely to cause such harm, they are permitted. Many precedents, however, have established that working as a court wizard is a violation of the Code.

[Litpho]

@Jonathan.Link

Of course, doing this is itself a violation of the code...

What are they going to do? March you twice? :mrgreen:

[Jonathan.Link]

@Litpho

@Jonathan.Link

Of course, doing this is itself a violation of the code...

What are they going to do? March you twice? :mrgreen:

Well the thread had meandered. And I'm not even sure the OP meant renounced from the Order. The magi in question might have been declared orbus.

[Xavi]

Actually the OoH has enough assassination methods to make that move not very effective if they put their minds to it. Razing a barony is NOT a violation of the code either, unless that has negative consequences for your sodales. Doing that as a warning to both rogues and nobles might be a case in point. I can seer the primus of guernicus being the one leading the attack.