Deidne Inner Mysteries

That's not correct. First, if the wound happened in the current combat scene, you are to ignore these conditions until the combat is over.

So a Wound Penalty (WP) of -6 says what can be done safely. Casting any spell, fatiguing or not, would force an immediate recovery check. The same goes for the 3-5 range. At the 1-2 range, a magus can cast spells that aren't fatiguing without forcing a recovery roll, but if he does fatigue himself, he must roll for recovery.

Did timezones exist back then? The mechanical clock hadn't been developed, afaik, and thus they had no measurement of the change in time. Going by the Art and Academe explanation, shouldn't the time be the same all over mythic Europe?

In Medieval Europe time was the position of the sun. I doubt the question would have even occurred to them. On the other hand, ancient models of the solar system did have relative motion of the earth and sun, even if the sun did move relative to the earth, but at the same time the earth was considered flat - though ancient astronomers pre-Christianity had calculated it was round, which would accurately project that the sun would rise at different 'times' in different parts of Europe.

Also while there was no mechanical clock, there were water clocks, candle clocks, and other ways of telling time independent from the movement of the sun.


One of the reasons the ancients 'knew' the Earth was spherical was that, if it were flat, mornings would be longer in the west and evenings to be longer in the east. Obviously that's not the case, however, which points to a round earth.

Also, while it doesn't directly apply to Mythic Europe, it does perhaps give some insight into time-keeping practices before the invention of Standardized Time. (

The astrology rules imply that it exits. That's why you need to use a spell to recalculate astrological time when you move, if it weren't for this building a magical watch would be much easier. Also, if there are no time zones navigation becomes much easier.

The reason why I wrote my signature like that is that, to be honest, I am a bit tired of asking a question and getting the reply "Look at Subrose number X" and people leave it at that. Sometimes I ask a question to start a discussion and I think that refering it to any fanzine is counterproductive to my wish. So I am sorry if you are sad or insulted by my signature, but when I ask a question on the free and official board, I do it in hope to get an answer I need and not just be told to by a fanzine. Its not that I am spamming the boards with questions, so I would be happy if I am not refered to subrosa when I ask questions or write my own threads on this board :slight_smile:

And I'm sorry you feel the need to leave that as your sig.

I can respect your desire to not have the fanzine brought up. Perhaps you can respect others desire to discuss those fanzines, wherever they pop up, whether you created the thread or not. As the originator of several threads, I'm well aware that threads can meander outside of the original post and topic. Whether it was the first response to your original post or the 100th response, I'd do the same thing, and tell the person who asked about the Sub Rosa Diedne issue which one it is, or if they ask about an article, I will tell them where it is If I know. Sharing that kind of information is an important purpose of the forum. Indeed this thread veered off topic with someone proposed that the rules prevent an injured magus from using fatigue, and I corrected that. Such a scenario's relationship to House Diedne is tangential at best, and the Inner Mysteries (if they are indeed a Mystery House) not at all.

It was well-known that the earth was spherical and that the orbit of the sun about it would cause "dawn" to occur at different instants as you moved west to east. Likewise, it was well known that moving northwards changed the length of the day (depending on the seasonal position of the sun).

Dividing the globe up into timezones didn't occur until much later (I believe), but "times" like "one hour after dawn", or "midday" would be known to happen at different instants depending on where you were: it just didn't matter to most people though.

There are other accurate ways of measuring time (water clocks, burning candles, etc). Also, Heremetic magi can do all sorts of tricks to inform themselves if they wish. Observations down Intangible Tunnels that are distributed over Mythic Europe, for example.

Not sure I see the relevance to it being night-time where the bulk of the Diedne were, with regards to their Parma. Parma Magica lasts from sunrise to sunset, and vice versa, and it takes two minutes to perform the ritual. So, if the Curse of Thoth were performed at 5:30 am in Rome, being 3:30 am in England, the Diedne would be just as resistant as they would be at high noon.

That being said, that's always been the thing that's always bothered me the most about the Quaesitores official "party line" about how they gakked pretty much the whole house. "Um..yeah...we cast this really awesome spell that went off at the precise moment that every Diedne in creation's Parma was being renewed." Unless all the Diedne were in the same place (or, at the very least, on the same line of longitude), that should be impossible.

But that's a rant for another thread, methinks.

History's a lie they teach you in school / apprenticeship.

I'm going to answer this and then leave it, because I regularly post for people to "Go look at Sub Rosa X."

When I post that in a thread, it's not to drive anyone to pick up an issue of Sub Rosa. We make nothing from Sub Rosa-- that's a discussion which has been completely hashed out on the Berklist, but it bears stating here; Sub Rosa only funds more issues of Sub Rosa.

I direct people to Sub Rosa because it usually has 2000 to 4000+ words on the matter being discussed, in greater detail or consideration than I have time to invest. Plus, a lot of people have those issues (if our records are any indication) and so it avoids having the discussion retread already established points, and keeps the conversation headed through new ground.

Having said this, I'll keep further discussion to private messages.


So you see House Diedne as a version of what Ex Miscellanea is today?

More centered in (pagan) religion as the mortar that unifies the house, but yes, it seems that Mark does.

I quite like that approach, actually.

Similar, yes. There is a big difference however. Ex Miscellanea has no common philosophy. Non-Hermetic wizards and magi join this house to avoid having to accept philosophies or duties that the other houses might impose. My version of House Diedne is more like one of the other three societates, in that it had a clear philosophy that it expected its members to follow; in this case worship of Land, Sea, and Sky. It was aggressively hierarchical; those who descended from Diedne's line maintained a stranglehold on the house's leadership. It did adopt magi from outside the house, much like the other societates.

When a non-Hermetic wizard joined the Order they tended to enter either Diedne or Ex Miscellanea. Joining House Diedne required a wizard to comply by the rules of the house, and yet there were benefits. The house laid claim to ancient vis sites they had been drawing n before the Order was formed, and those magi in favour with the house received a share of this bounty. There was a strong community spirit in House Diedne as well: a Diedne maga could rely on her housemates to champion her in certamen, shelter her in Wizard's War, and support her motions at tribunal. On the other hand, they also had to give up their rights to any ancestral vis sites of their own, submit to the leadership of the house, and possibly adapt their religious practices towards a syncretic belief. House Diedne insisted on tripartite worship of Land, Sea, and Sky, and magi joining with their own pagan beliefs had to pay lip-service to this. In most polytheistic pagan faiths this was not a problem.

Wizards joined House Ex Miscellanea if they just wanted to be left alone to practice their magic in peace. There was (and is) no house culture to speak of, no community to fall back on, and no resources in common to which to claim a share.


Thank you, Mark, I really like your approach and I will adopt it into my campaigns. <3

Also, this sounds exactly like House Tremere. So, that quite naturally explains why a conflict would arise.

I'm writing up "what really happened in the Schism War" as the background to being the Storyteller for an investigation of that by the troupe IMS. After reading the first article in Sub Rosa, ny interpretation of Diende was "Ex Misc, if it was set up by an abused, pagan Tremere."

Ie, that most of the issues seemed to come from the fact that Diende was fleeing her tradition for the protection of the Order - but she brought a great deal of baggage and mistrust from that relationship with her, which ended up coloring her actions and likely contributing heavily to the ultimate outcome. So the need for secrecy, for the Diende themselves to be 'in control', their seeming inability to work with the order's Authority figures (on the assumption that something will fail, most people let it fail, and thus feel justified when it does), etc.

That being said, I find that saying "Tremere saw Diende a twisted version of themselves" to not be enough, actually. Personally, I like going with their explicitly stated reason, in HoH:TL - claims of diabolism aside, they really, really , REALLY hated human sacrifice, to the point where they were willing to destroy the Diende to get rid of its taint from the Order. I like that interpretation mainly because the Tremere already have the motivation of political schemers - they don't need that to be re-enforced. So, combining their known reputation of political shenanigans along with the revulsion to human sacrifice gives a nice segue into their mystery cult history, and makes them more understandable as a group that has been betrayed by the gods before, and refused to let it happen again.

One other question would be why was she fleeing her old tradition? It reminds me of the issue of the Chaldeans in Judaism- Chaldean mystics had a truly heinous reputation in ancient Judaic culture, in part because all of the Chaldeans to make it from Babylon to Judea were the ones who had been kicked out for unacceptable practices. It is entirely possible that Diedne's order made typical druids seem like a flock of doves...