Destroying a ghost : PeMe or PeVi ?

[Cuchulainshound]

@LimitedEdition

First of all no need to become aggressive, I believe I haven't been...

Didn't intend aggression - I found your request for a reference vs. the spell description a bit... well, something exaggerated. And so I did.

Well, may I remind you that the DEO spell dates back to the first edition of Ars Magica.

There are lots of legacy headaches, no doubt. But I don't find this one contradictory with 5th ed paradigm.

And there's no such distinction in the PeVi Guidelines, which I tend to follow more than the spell's descriptions.

But all the PeVi Guidelines say is "Reduce a creature's MM..." - so by that interpretation only one spell is needed for all 4 realms! Not acceptable ims, but mine isn't yours, natch. But if so, then why have "Demons EO" instead of "Magical Might's Eternal Oblivion", the obvious universal spell? You think the just editors missed that? Anything's possible...

Finally, your interpretation is quite subjective. Let's consider a PeVi spell intended for the Faerie Realm. How many PeVi do you have ? One per Faerie type ? Where do you draw the line ?

Subjective? Perhaps. I guess it comes down to one's understanding/interpretation of the AM cosmology, and how things work in your saga. For me, there are not parallel manifestations of every realm for every "creature" - there is no Divine equiv of a church brownie or a gremlin, for instance. The Fae are not diametrically opposed to another realm, nor do they manically seek to corrupt humans to "the ways of the Queen of Winter!" I see them working differently on several levels.

And, as I expect all to, I draw the line where I think it's reasonable for my sagas. And for me, it's not reasonable to have one spell that is a panacea for anything and everything that springs from the maw of hell.

@LimitedEdition

Ahh, irony. Your reasoning operates on the assumption that a difference in the language used to describe the rules matches a difference in the rules and in the world. What is a demon? What do the rules define as a demon? Do any other spells differentiate between creatures of a given realm?

I agree that it's something very poorly explained in the books. Nevertheless, your logic is, I would say, more flawed because it's language dependent.

I'm confused - what else is there but language when talking about rules and the written word, which is the medium of communication for a "book", a rule book in this case? If you're not basing your interpretation on the meaning of the words in the book... what are you basing it on? (And, for that matter, why are we "talking"?)

If "your gut feeling" or "your personal paradigm of cosmology", that's fine - but that's not canon, and that's not in the RAW.

Were the spell named Devil's Eternal Oblivion, would you limit it still further?

No - but if the spell description read "destroys devils...", I'd have to consider what it meant by that.

Hermetic Magic is a coherent whole and the rules for requisites, affecting things across Realms and what have you should all work the same way barring exceptions.

And Aegis and Wards are two of the biggest exceptions out there. (I can site references to that end if you need them.)

For me:

Demons means "infernal might". Only demons have infernal might. The demon can be ghost, beast of "demonform" demon, but it's still a demon.

Well, that's fine...

And a "description" can't go against guideline used.

... but your description of "demons" does exactly that, depending on the reading.

@AM5 p 196

In game terms, any creature with Infernal Might may be called a demon, devil or infernal creature.

And, awkwardly, there are at least two clear ways to read that:

1. (Your way) "We may use any of these terms in the rules, and all are interchangeable, and all refer to creatures with IM"
   ...or...
2. (My way) "We may use any of these terms in the rules, and altho' distinct, they all refer to creatures with IM".

So, the question remains - does IM = demon, or does demon, and infernal ghost, and corrupt beast = IM?

And here we are.

For me, part of the answer comes from the question of "What happens to the creature once MM is gone?" For Demons, it's stated that they return to the Infernal Realm. For Ghosts (infernal or otherwise), it's stated they are "laid to rest" - a different fate, perhaps?* For Infernally tainted animals, the demonic taint is removed, but the corporeal body remains - possibly still alive. So for me these three designations are distinct in that sense at least. And for me, ims, it makes sense that a spell to affect one isn't right for another. ysmv.

(* Or perhaps not so much, at least for ghosts of the damned. A quick reading of ROP:Infernal supports your interpretation re Infernal ghosts, at least, stating that "...Demons are creatures native to the Infernal Realm, altho' some have their ultimate origin in the mundane realm (infernal ghosts)..." Can't find a reference to corrupt beasts at first pass. I may have to rethink that one, and probably have to accept your interpretation re ghosts to stay true to canon, but from the core book alone my original interpretation has worked for me.)

[Richard_Love]

@ExarKun

For me:

Demons means "infernal might". Only demons have infernal might. The demon can be ghost, beast of "demonform" demon, but it's still a demon.

I believe that you are right, that in this case "demon" is meant to be read as a generic term for "critters with Infernal Might".

@ExarKun

And a "description" can't go against guideline used.

True, but a description (and the effect) of an individual spell can be narrower than the guideline it is based on.

For example in this case, the guideline allows a single PeVi Might depleting spell to affect all creatures with Might of a particular realm. However, there is nothing stopping a magus creating a PeVi spell that only destroys the Might of Faerie dragons, for example. Normally, you probably wouldn't want to do this. But if you had, say, a focus in Dragons, then it might make sense, as you could then apply your focus to the lab project to invent the spell. Whereas the focus wouldn't apply to the invention of a more generic version of the spell.

[Marko_Markoko]

To add fuel to the fire, I would note that RoP-Infernal mentions that all creatures with an Infernal Might are Demons.

[Xavi]

More than fuel to the fire what that does it kill the subject outright DEO works on all creatures with infernal might, then. As most of us were already playing it, btw.

Cheers,
Xavi

[Marko_Markoko]

Yep. Totally kills it. I just double checked my reference before hound’s-hound jumps on me (I am his favorite target, but we all know that is because he secretly idolizes me 8) )

@RoP:I

Any creature with an Infernal Might score may be properly called a demon…

[Cuchulainshound]

@Marko Markoko

Yep. Totally kills it.

Or it was mentioned earlier, and so just doesn't add anything worth responding to.