I'm trying to design an effect that would trigger only if you are not invited to the Aegis such as most mundanes, hostile Magi, hostile creatures, etc.
Would an InVi B5: See active spells be the base required? Or should it scale with the level of the Aegis such as if the Aegis is a level 50 then it only requires a B1: Detect magic of tenth magnitude or higher effect to have the information? Also, can the effect directly know the information or does it require an additional +1 magnitude to have additional information?
As usual, to have the information, the effect would need to penetrate any type of resistance.
Would it be helpful to detect the opposite? A spell doesn't trigger if someone has a working token? I'm not sure if tokens "deactivate" if someone's invitation is revoked, but an imperfect effect like this wouldn't be scrying on a member of the Order and it wouldn't have to penetrate I think?
Might be good to combine it with some of the wild defences from one of the books, like filling the room with smoke and then sensing where the smoke isn't for targeting (cannot remember which book that's in, maybe Legends of Hermes?).
The spell still has to detect 'someone just entered the Aegis', and then determine information about 'did whoever just entered the Aegis qualify'. I think both count as scrying; but maybe they are acceptable (similar to 'Forceless' casting).
the aegis imposing restrictions on someone who entered without a token and whom the aegis would affect- so if they are Gifted or have might, but not a mundane walking through the barrier
It might be able to detect a token being assigned to someone, or being revoked. Essentially things which affect the operation of the spell.
Scrying is only an issue if it is undisclosed and the target does not accept it. If a Covenant has warnings posted that alert all who enter that they will be observed magically then by entering they accept that.
Many Covenants which can not directly observe their entrance will have such a "warning and sensor" arrangement.
InVi tells you about the magic (past or present) itself. It looks like you want to know about the thing affected by the magic. I don't think Vim is the art you need.
You want something equivalent to the spotty "learn magical properties" Guidelines: InAq 5 & 10, InIg 4, InTe 20. The magical property being "affected by the Aegis," of course.
But you want it to apply to people, so probably something like InCo 5 "Sense a specific piece of information about a body" if you can read across to the InAq/Ig/Te guidelines. Of course, it can be resisted, too.
Also, just to add to the discussion as the Aegis is always a bit exotic, am I right to assume that:
Aegis affects all things (including people) in it's boundary unless is excluded because:
* Individual was part of the original casting
* Individual has a valid token
* Thing (typically magical object) was included during the original casting
So the InCo(Vi?) effect would detect, if it penetrates, if any, the resistance, if the target is under the influence of an Aegis or not. And then, if it is, meaning the target not resisted the InCo(Vi?) effect and/or is not part of the Aegis exclusions, could trigger the linked effect?
I think monitoring the Aegis itself to see when it is being entered (especially by the uninvited) should be fine, since you are scrying on the spell, not the people, and the information is impersonal. of course YTMV (Your Tribunal May Vary)
So you would recommend a InVi(Co?)? If you look at my OP, I was going that way too... had troubles figuring out details such as the base, requisites, extra complexity, etc.
Except I am not sure the aegis 'detects, then reacts'; it seems to me that it is more like a wall, a passive (and insensate) barrier. Scrying on the Aegis could tell you 'Yep, it is still there' or 'Something destroyed it entirely'; but if something got through the aegis (like someone climbing in through a window, but leaving the wall standing) then there is nothing the Aegis can tell you.
I don't think you could detect outright whether something is going to be affected by the aegis or not, but you might be able to detect something being affected by the aegis, so any creature with might could be detected, as could a mage actively casting, for example.
First keep in mind that if I use InTe on a wall I can indeed ask "did anyone come through teh window" so your analogy has a flaw there. secondly it is a very different proposition if someone has to open the window first. Fundamentally I'm not relying on the aegis to actively detect anything, just to bear signs of their passage. If the aegis is actively suppressing someone or something's power that is information about the spell itself that should be able to be known. If a token is preventing it from suppressing someone's power that is also information about the spell itself. Who or where that person is (aside from inside the aegis) is not an aspect of the spell, but what it is actively doing or what it has done are.
There is no guideline to cover it, but thre is also nothing to prevent people from discovering (or game wise introducing) new guidelines. In principle it should be possible in that it is determining information about a spell. It would be a higher level than the published guidelines in that it is more specific information than the alignment or art involved, so maybe a base of 15 or higher, depending on what you are trying to learn. At level 15 InHe you can speak with a plant, so I would imagine that with an InVi 15 you could gather information on a spell with longer than momentary duration.
Level 4: Awaken the consciousness of a plant (Mentem requisite).
I wonder if you can "Awaken" the Aegis with a MuV(Me) and then you can just have it tell you what is going on in the Alliance. Might be easier/more aligned with RAW to awaken the main building of the alliance with a MuTe(Me).
I know... scrying on visiting sodalis issues and such but I can imagine a winter convenant having done it.
That guideline suggests that plants have some cunning that you can awaken to Intelligence. But the Aegis is a spell, and we don't have any evidence to suggest they have any cunning, so I wouldn't allow using that Guideline in any other Form except Animal.
Now, I think the ability to "Awaken" a spell could be an interesting Breakthrough, but one that would need to be done in-game.
