Detecting spirits without intellego

I said I was torn on this. Here's me trying to interpret what my gut is saying :

It is easier to imagine filing a room with a force that destroys infernal might it drains infernal might from everything in the room; lamps, faeries, everything, a force that only creates an image on a specific sort of magical effect seems more specific, it doesn't create the image on everything.

Detecting the spells in the room and only marking them (even if our spell targets any magic not just arcane tunnels) seems to be an intellego vim action -a creo imaginem effect could even be cosmetic to an InVi spell that does this. That's the big thing the spell is doing - detecting tunnels not creating images.

The spell discussed earlier in this thread that alters the output of a fire so as to illuminate spirits is working with a fire which is already producing light and it has a vim requisite. It is a somewhat different situation.


Let's consider a CrIm spell that paints a single Tunnel, target Ind. If the spell can discern something that is a tunnel from something that is not (and we set aside whether the magus can see the Tunnel for targeting, since that won't matter when we consider Room), it requires InVi requisites. Nothing about CrIm lets you selectively paint certain kinds of target. Kind of the way a kinder, gentler House Flambeau would need some sort of InMe effect to create a fire that only burns enemies.

We extend this to the case of Room, and nothing changes.

Of course, there's an issue about what happens if the Tunnel moves; the Tunnel has not been altered to emit species, so that the created image isn't going to move with the Tunnel. Right? But that's a tangent.

Conversely, DEO does not need anything other than PeVi. If I cast it at a rock or my (mundane) dog, nothing happens, just as PeCo does not need In to 'know' not to harm animals. If I make a Room version, nothing changes.



Agreed, it’s not an open and shut case. I wasn’t confident that it made sense.

The InVi spells to find other spells or ghosts typically does not use a Room target though which is why they need a way to focus at a target (which Room is a work around for) and then pass than information to a sense (which the CrIm is a work around for).

I do feel that Room should grant some leverage to not care if a tunnel is present and target them; and affect them all, just like it would a few invisible ghosts, demons, or fae.

To change the scenario slightly a spell to target invisible ghosts who might be in a room would work, and could then do something to them.

As another aside - that CrIm/InVi spell might actually more like a InVi/CrIm spell anyway. Which gets back to using the guidelines for detecting through a sense rather than a Room.

Been doing more thinking on this . I may be off base here, but it sounds like there are two generally accepted way for a spell to target a thing: Perceiving it as the magus, or perceiving it with intellego (extension, as the magus). Perhaps it could be the other way around? The spell to target in hermetic magic, the spell must be able to perceive the target (with intellego) or the spell needs to perceive the target with the magus as its proxy for intellego.

Hmm. After this discussion (which I enjoy) I went back and read through the Lesser Limits of Hermetic Magic again; The limit of Arcane Connections states that you cannot affect an unsensed target without an Arcane Connection. Intellego gets around this somewhat. It also, coincidentally states that you cannot Perdo Corpus people on the other side of a wall unless you first perceive their existence. The above accepted Perdo Vim target Room for infernals is, assumed, getting around that by targeting the room. Basically, you can't kill Schroedinger's Cat with Perdo Animal, because you aren't sure if its there, and you might use the kill-living spell when you needed the destroy-corpse spell.

But ... We're now talking about Creo magic. Creo magic isn't targetting the 'effective' target. Just like casting Pilum of Fire, the target is the fire, the man getting burned a fortunate side-effect. If you cast Creo imaginem to paint your own Intangible Tunnel (which you perceive as the magus) then it creates a visible species in its location. by the strictest reading of the Limit of AC, this is fine. If you cast CrIm to paint someone else's tunnel, that you can't perceive, then you'll probably fail. Generally agreed? (I'll assume you agree with me, because you aren't going to respond before I actually finish this post, and it makes a better narrative.)

But what about the room spells? Room CrIg still fills a room with fire. Room PeVi still nukes all the demons in a room. Would a room-target CrIm be able to paint all the intangible tunnels in a room? I'm currently leaning towards no, actually. In fact, I think if you had second sight, could see all the Intangible tunnels yourself, you still couldn't paint them visible with a room-target CrIm - because I think you need a group target. Those intangible tunnels you're making visible are each a separate item. This second point is more of an opinion in my mind, and I don't think saying the room-sized spell is doomed to fail in all games. I might even allow it with added complexity levels to have the different parts. I digress.

Back on track: This is instead my thoughts on creo magic. You cannot tell magic to do something you don't understand. An apprentice, raised in seclusion by a Criamon, taught great levels of creo magic, animal magic, and provided with books and tutors, if told by his master to use Creo Animal to conjure a platypus, will fail.
"As a skilled practitioner of Creo and Animal, I can conjure anything, master! Tell me, what is a platypus that I may conjure it?"
"It is an animal. You may begin conjuring now."
Thus ends my philosophical argument of Criamon's Platypus.
Translating this to our current discussion, let's assume instead of intangible tunnels, we're playing with demons again. A room-wide Perdo Vim can damage all the demons in a room. Can a room-wide Creo Imaginem paint all the demons mauve? Dear magic, please make all the demons in this room illuminate with hideous color, thanks magic. Like a computer, magic isn't thinking for itself, its carrying out its instructions. You say paint the demons, it pulls out a list of demons in the room from your head, finds none, 404.

Here's a sketch of the structure of the problem, what a T: Room spell can affect and distinguish. I hope it helps.

This suggests, that the main differentiation is its basic spell parameters: Technique, Form, Guideline.

  • Cast a T: Room DEO? Then you would affect everything and everybody in the room, but as DEOs by their general PeVi guideline, their explanation in ArM5 p.160 (plus LoH p.12f Research and such) affect only demons, this takes then only effect on demons, and might not even challenge the Parma of a magus also present in the room.
  • Cast a T: Room CrIm spell magically painting everything in the room in specific Tartan colors? Then everything and everybody in the room gets painted, but for resisting beings and those entities like ghosts, demons and exits of Arcane Tunnels which have no shape to paint on.

This is just a rough approach. From it, the storyguide needs to determine what in the room each T: Room spell by its general parameters can and cannot affect. But magi inventing or sponting T: Room spells and effects to be more specific in what they wish to affect would have to resort to ArM5 p.114 Requisites to make the distinctions, thereby typically adding magnitudes for Intellego. Often using a T: Group instead would be more helpful: but

, so the caster must be able to identify the group when casting.



At this point, with this reasoning, every little bit of air in the room is now tartan, making it impossible to see anything.

And that identification and 'type' are straightforward: All the guys whose ACs are in my hand right now.



In this specific case: Shouldn't a magus, perhaps with an easy Finesse roll, be able to spont a T: Room CrIm spell painting not quite everything in the room Tartan, but without requisites excluding that air in the room he can perceive?
And wouldn't that magus by doing so not also exclude everything in the air he can't see, like again the ghosts, demons and exits of Arcane Tunnels?



Then shouldn't a magus, perhaps with an easy Finesse roll, spont a T:Room CrIg spell that burns not quite everything in the room, but without requisites excluding those friends in the room he can perceive?

Hmm. IIRC, Creo spells cannot have a Target of Room anyway.



Not quite. This holds only for Creo spells that actually create something (ArM5 p.113 box Targets and Creo).

Let's put away that - indeed impossible - T: Room CrIg that burns everything or not quite in the room.

But a T: Room CrIm or MuIm (I don't care which Technique, and probably neither does raccoonmask) covering the targeted room with an illusion can keep those friends, plus two chairs, a cupboard and the fumy air in the room, still looking the same: the magus just makes them part of his illusion with an appropriate Finesse roll.



Right. That's what I meant. The CrIm spell being discussed creates something, so is restricted.

The CrIm you describe wouldn't work, because of the restriction: You cannot create an illusion using Room, RAW.

MuIm might or might not, depending on the illusion.

Of course, this leads to a tangent about AM techniques; it is technically legal to use MuIm to change what I look like to be what I look like but with a lion right next to me, instead of just using CrIm to create an illusionary lion. In a similar way, sure, I can MuIm a Room to fill it with the illusions I want.



I'm in agreement with Ken here. Creating an illusion uses the illusion itself as the target. The box on p.113 is pretty explicit and even specifically goes into T: Room. If you're changing the appearance of something without changing that something itself, that would generally be MuIm, PeIm, or ReIm, depending on the sort of change in appearance you want. I can think of other methods, like giving a solid the translucent property of glass or glass the opacity of a rock. The actual method being described sounds extremely similar to Image Phantom (ArM5 p.146), which is MuIm.

By the Founders... there's a thing we've missed...

There's been a certain level of argument and confusion back and forth. And I've even been a part of it. This time I did even more reading and research, and I found the following insert in the main book:

Ok, thats a mistake I've made across a series of spells. Darn it. By extension this is also the same for any Creo, which might have used Structure or Boundary too.

  • What about creating heat in part of a wall and floor? Or heating the hilt of a sword?

It needs T: Part to heat a part of the wall, but must be T: Ind because of this ruling.

CrIg T Ind, rego requisite if you want to stop the heat from the section? Heating part of a wall or a sword could easily be T:Ind with magnitudes for increased precision.

That falls outside of the rule, but it isn't clear. Note that the rule is for a thing actually created. So, for example, you don't create a new mind when you increase someone's Intelligence by +1, so this rule doesn't apply to spells using that guideline. You can augment the heat in something, too, such as with Warmth of the Wood (MoH p.40). Commonly you'll still see Individual, though, because you're typically warming an Individual.

To get things back on track and away from the manifold 'tangents' that crop up: You did not care about CrIm or MuIm in

Neither did I care for it in my direct answer here nor Ovarwa in his answer to that. So I correct my answer to raccoonmask to


  1. Air doesn't 'exist' in the medieval context (whew, nearly used the 'P-word' there!), so obviously that would not turn tartan. Weather phenomenai exist, 'air' does not. It's in the core book.
  2. No, the Magus could in fact not be able to exclude bits of content within the room, using simple Finesse, because then he's be violating the implicit boundary created by the room, which is what qallows him to using the T: Room in the first place. All or nothing.

It is not that simple.

Look at ArM5 p.128 Room of Stale Air as a specific example spell not treating air as a carrier of weather phenomena.

A T: Room MuIm illusion effect is not forced to change everything in that room: I can make a table in it look like exactly that table, while I change the wooden floor it is standing on to look like precious marble. A SG can impose Finesse rolls for it, though:


This is very theoretical, so i won't even attempt to use spell guidelines.
I believe there is a tremere mentem spell that will equip existing ghosts with ghostly weapons. So you could cast a spell on the ghost of a roman soldier to give it a gladius, sling, etc.

Using that logic, could you use a muto animal spell with a mentem requisite on a quill pen? The idea is to turn the pen into a partly ghostly pen, essentially making it part of the spirit realm. It would then be visible and useable by spirits. A spirit could then pick the pen up and write with it to communicate with you.

Admittedly, this only works if there is a nearby spirit that is both cooperative and self aware, but it does work without using intelligo.

Does this concept sound workable? Or too far outside the arm5 framework? (If this were d&d, id say i was enchanting the pen to be ethereal, but it is not).
Apologies for typos, this is on my phone.

You might be able to use a ReVi to force any ghost present to manifest or at least appear...
Or maybe MuVi(co) to force them to become embodied...