Thanks for all these thoughts. I picked up 2nd and a bunch of the supplements and a handful of 3rd supplements I didn't have. I just end up feeling like 5th is too much when I look over it, but most seem to think it's the most well thought out system. Maybe I just am not as attentive to the granularity of it all, or maybe I just need to start simple if I ever get something off the ground.
Every time I play it at a con it seems really fun and do-able, so maybe also it's the covenant design and book-keeping aspect that feels a bit exhausting to me.
Thanks so much for all of the insight. I'd love to hear more thoughts from everyone of course, just thought I'd chime in and say I appreciate it.
Sure, 5th ed can seem a bit much. I think it's the best edition, but I do miss some of the things that were simpler back from when I first read 2nd ed. And as a veteran I can deal with it, but it's not easy to start new people up with.
If I were to recommend a startup for novices, I'd go for a start with players designing (or be assigned) children picked up by magi, tested and selected for apprenticeship. First part of the saga is learning about Hermetic culture, magic, and the mythic part of ME. Followed by accelerated apprenticeship with stories every 3-5 years to ease players in the new traits of their characters. And finally you'd have magi at Gauntled, where you've gotten used to their traits.
IMHO ArM misses such a easing-into start for completely new players, it's mostly a game for people who already know it, or have experience with similar stuff or lots of other games.
2nd ed had each chapter introduced by a short part of an ongoing tale of a girl taken as apprentice. And I think that helped my understanding of the game, when I first read it.
IIRC Familiars used similar mechanics in both 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
I only ever had a maga with a familiar in 4th ed though. I've always thought it problematic that familiars requires specialization into Intellego Animal Mentem, and the result was final when done. So not only were magi with other specialities then those 3 Arts disadvantages, you'd have to decide when to bond with the familiar. Do it too early and you miss out on potential, too late and you might never do it. And if the familiar is supposed to be a magus' closest companion...
I like the way 5th ed solved it, so they are generally useful and possible. Whatever your magic is, you can find a sympathetic animal. Great symbolism, if the Imaginam specialist as a peacock and the Terram magus a mole. Second,a young magus can do it (as long as they arent too ambitions about the size and might) and they can reforge the bonds as they improve Arts. Third, it's an open ended device, you can keep on improving it through life.
Speaking of generalism, 1st ed had Parma Magica as a Rego Vim spell! Talk about shafting some magical specialities compared to others. 1st ed is the last of the editions I ever read, so it continues to baffle me, since Parma Magica was an Ability already in 2nd ed.
Nope. 2nd ed allowed you to invest powers based on hermetic powers, very similarly to 5th edition IIRC.
3rd allowed you to invest points from you bond strength into powers that were more tricky to copy with hermetic magics.
Absolutely! But I've mentioned how useful/powerful familiars are before, haven't I.
I'm gonna have to disagree slightly here, although I'm personally surprised as well:
ArM 2nd ed p109: "In the third season, you grant the familiar a power chosen from the list below. You must have a score of 15+ in the listed Art to grant your familiar a given power. If your familair already has a major magical power, this season is spent attuning those powers to Hermetic magic, and you may not grant the familiar another power. You may invent a power of your own, with troupe aproval"
And the list of powers include: Healing, Special Sense, Human Shape
So not only did you need high levels of Intellego Animal Mentem, you also needed 15+ in the Art relevant for the power.
So, the powers were somewhat similar to what we do in 5th, except no rules to gauge balance vs. power and always with the same difficulty. You need 15+ in Corpus (or "Corporem" which is was called back then) , otherwise no Healing power for you!
And only ever one! And no new ones, if the familiar had powers to begin with. That is a lot more imiting than we're used to.
But it's true that 4th (and possibly also 3rd) had some powers wholly unconnected to Hermetic magic to choose from. My 4th ed ice maga did some cool stuff with her snow fox, by switching all her poor characteristics with the fox' better ones and vice versa.
This existed, to some extent, until 4ed, where Charms against Magic were possible. A ReVi lab rat could make devices granting MR which it would take ages to achieve with PM.
Actually, 5ed has made several changes to fix the broken PM. In previous editions, you did not deduct the spell level in the calculation of penetration, leaving PM useless against powerful spells. Beginning magi could easily penetrate magi with years of experience.
Charms against Magic are gone (except for a suggested breakthrough which still does not match the old Charms), leaving PM as the only effective general purpose MR.
Finally, it is now the Parma which protects against the effects of the Gift, further emphasising its importance for a collaborative Order.
These parma-related fixes is one of the three main reasons I prefer 5ed. The other two being the (fairly) consistent spell guidelines and the very clear breakdown into seasons for advancement purposes. The only improvement which is not easily retro-fitted as a simple house rule is the spell guidelines.
Oh yeah, I rember that. We talked about it, but nobody ever made any. You could grant PM to non-magi as well, IIRC
Actually, 5ed has made several changes to fix the broken PM. In previous editions, you did not deduct the spell level in the calculation of penetration, leaving PM useless against powerful spells. Beginning magi could easily penetrate magi with years of experience.
Yes! And it makes sense to me that greater spells don't automatically Penetrate better. Some of the magic goes into the power/effect and some goes into the Penetratiopn. But the sum is (more or less) constant. I like itthat the archetypical Flambeau Hopolite doesn't just invent a humongeous spell to defeat the wel-protected enemy, but uses a lesser spell to greater effect. So the PoF he learned and mastered in his youth is even better now and more versatile than his latest 10th magnitude avalanche of fire.
Finally, it is now the Parma which protects against the effects of the Gift, further emphasising its importance for a collaborative Order
I don't think it was more of a thing in 3ed than in 5ed. They just gave it a name, but it was no more than the mystical energy manipulated by any spell caster. It is also named in 4ed, to be distinguished from raw vis, but throughout the books is it just implicit, as it is omnipresent.
In 2ed it is described as follows. «Magic is commonly described as a subtle, intangible fluid that flows through the world; Hermetic magi call it vis.» But this is only background flavour. Raw vis is introduced elsewhere in the book. In 3ed/4ed, fluid vis is only described as background to be distinguished from raw vis. It disappeared in 5ed, but only because it was superfluous.
I guess no pumping vis into tanks through pipes and tubes and alchemical machinery like the mod Thaumcraft in Minecraft. hehe
I really wish Atlas would make a new edition. Or at least a 'cleaned up' 5th edition. Or at least didn't actually stop making Ars books. Whenever I think of how the line is officially dead its just a bit sad.
Honestly I think every edition of ars is supposed to be a "cleaned up" version of the edition before it. I don't think anyone has ever sat down and thought about actually looking at the structure of the system and rebuilding it from the ground up for better consistency...
Thought about it. Playtesters didn't like the scale of the changes involved.
A full rebuild from the ground up would be a different game, and I strongly suspect that it has been done several times, because Ars Magica is one of the games that has influenced a lot of designers over the years.
All I know is that years later, over a decade, and 5e Ars Magica sits proudly front and center on my shelves. That though I don't have a game or players I am reading the books and actively making a vast story using its set up and rules and setting. That I look at Ars Magica and go 'how can I put elements of this elsewhere'. Ars Magica, especially 5e, is a brilliant fantastic game that needs more, like MOAR!!!!
Funny you mention that David. I was looking through a copy of some 3e Tribunal books, and saw Geoff Grabowski as a writer or a play tester (can't remember which)... He later went on to create Exalted for WhiteWolf, which in the early 2000s was an extremely popular RPG.
