Discrepancy concerning Target: Room for some spells

ArM p113 clearly lists that spells with target room will not function at all, if there is no room containing the target; it cannot affect a "room-sized" vulume outside.

However the spells:
ImIm Ear for Distant Voices
ImIm Summoning the Distant Image
PeVi Wind of Mundane Silence

Are all target: Room. So they can NEVER work outside, becaue you're not in a room.

This does seem a bit broken.

I'm guessing these spells got Target: Room because they concern the insubstantial forms. What else would the targets be?

But wrong. I hear the sounds/see the images as if I was standing where the Arcane Connection points. What target would that be? Should they in stead have used the Targets for magical senses?

This still does not explain Winds of Mundane Silence, which clearly is an area effect spell.

Has this already been discussed, and either resolved or become yet another eternal controversy?

Yeah, makes you wonder what giants of Hermetic theory wrote these? Same ones that thought that creating a hurricane force wind to blow you around up into the air was the best way to "fly", no doubt. :wink:

Without doing the legwork to prove it, I'll guess that these are "legacy" spells, that were adopted without too much new playtesting to check for such hiccups.

One paradox can arise when a Guideline includes "Arcane Connection" - some effects can then (mistakenly?) be written to include 2 targets, the AC by the Guidelines and something larger like room for the Target.

I think the original (earlier edition) spell descriptions, before the current Targets/etc, limited the area that could be viewed/affected - "a few paces around the target" or something like that. Using Room may have seemed the right way to interpret this in the new system, but the limitations of doing so may not have been obvious at the time.

The problem is in the wider discussion of "what is a sound" (see "species") - but whenever that discussion causes trouble, it's the first to go out the window for me. So, the obvious solution is to drop the Targets from +2 Room to +0 Individual, lower all those Magnitudes, and be at peace with the world. (For the PeVi, change to Group, up to 10 spell effects together in an "area".)

Me, I find several few spells "in canon" troubling as written, either for something like the above reasons, or some other assumption(s) in their design. Some SG's feel that, for some reason, theses "canon" spells are the most common in the Order. I feel the opposite - with all the diversity, with all the history, a single senior mage would most likely have few of those in their repertoire. (But it could easily be true that, for some strange confluence of events, those canon spells may be the most likely to be found in a library, and thus most likely to be known by a newly gauntleted apprentice.)

If you're the SG, don't get pushed around by the rules if you feel strongly about it.

Earlier editions didn't have "Target"s. They hade Range, Duration, and Effect. The "target" or area of effect was simply a built in part of the effect. Some of the examples sited were legacy spells even in 4th edition, having a "Target" category tacked on for good measure. Then they carried over into fifth.
And huricane force winds are indeed the best way to fly! You go a lot faster that way :slight_smile:

That's right - how soon we forget. (Me, anyway, clearly.) :unamused:

So, you could interpret "room" as some abstract limit on the scrying - images beyond that are not perceivable. That would mean that having an AC to a hilltop would not let you see the countryside, only the hilltop - which does make ~some~ sense, but doesn't really mesh with the Guidelines as written.

With all the hundred-plus spells to be translated into the new edition, some arrived with hiccups that were not caught. Late nights and writing copy tend to be a tradition, for some reason. 8)

That's the trouble with trying quantify spell creation. On the one hand, without guidelines, we were blundering around in the dark, On the other, the guidelines we have could be seen as being too prescriptive by the simple fact of their existance... by defining, we limit.

Ok, so changing Winds of Munda Silence from Room to Group fixes this. You affect up to 10 spells or other supernatural phenomena in the area/on the object you designate - if there are any.

Looking at "Eye of the Sage" IncCo30 AmM p131, you sense the specific person to which you have AC and everything within 1 pace. It is T:Ind.
So perhaps those aforementiones InIm spells for hearing or seeing shoudl instead of being T:Room be T:Ind with +1 mag for size. Same magnitude as before, but instead of requiring the target area to be in a well-defined room, you just sense one large individual's worth of area.

A solution for this ought to come in the official Errata.

Wait, those are apples and oranges.

InCo Guidelines read differently than InIm. The InCo spell gives the caster "very general information about a body" - here, their very immediate surroundings & etc.

Further, the InIm (for this effect) are not using an "Individual" of Imagonem as a Target, but the effect "uses one sense at a distance" - and so are outside those normal parameters. These effects as defined in the Guidelines have nothing to do with "one large individual worth of area".

They are problematic, but not "errata" per se - they're not typical effects. For better or worse, many spells are like that, when you take a close look. Maybe, rather than errata, take these as "creative interpretation" of the Guidelines? Your call, either way works.

Have you - or anyone else - spotted other spells with this "error"?

If not this one, then parallel non-standard echoes from legacy spells, yes.

It's a formulaic spell. They are allowed to deviate from strict guidelines. If you're unhappy about it, retarget it to "special, room-equivalent" to let you observe a roomful around the person you have a connection to, regardless of whether he is indoor or outdoors. Just say that things become hazy at a short distance.

I'm quite happy with Wind of Mundane Silence working only indoors. The alternate you are offering is a different spell that require you to be aware of the spells you are dispelling rather than the room, and them forming a group, though again, you can tweak it as a special target.

This isn't as good though as Room target, if there actually is a room. If the things that you want to target are in a room, then you can dispell many more than 10 supernatural effects; you dispell all of them in the room. So, yes, you can make a similar Group target spell if you like, but it's a different spell. It could be more useful than the Winds of Mundane Silence but the Winds of Mundane Silence could be much more powerful if the things that you want to affect are in a room...in a laboratory, for example.

That would just let you see a large Individual. What's wrong with the Room target spells? Yes, they only work if the things that you want to see are in a Room, but that's what the spell does.

Why? There isn't anything wrong with the spells, they just don't seem to do what you want them to do. In which case, that's great your characters can invent the spells that you do want.

They are not "broken", but the "Room" target is an odd and (mostly) unnecessary addition.

Without "Room, you still have the AC, so you can hear as if your hearing were at the AC. By adding "Target: Room", that expands the Guideline (I'll assume/accept) to allow the Caster to move their Sense around the room, to any perspective within that area. But it does limit it to an actual "room". (It also sets up a precedent that if the target were "Structure" you could move your hearing to anywhere within a castle if you have an AC of some sort within that castle.*)

A far more generally versatile (and lower magnitude) spell would lose the "room", and just accept that the point of hearing is fixed at the AC.

(* And, I'm wondering if the Target were "Part", could you limit your hearing to screen out interference - the din of battle, or the roar of a loud nearby waterfall?)

Perhaps, but if the target is Room then you can hear conversations in the room that can't be heard from the perspective of the Arcane Connection. So, for example, if the Arcane Connection leads to a grog of yours, then he only needs to get into the king's court for you to hear the whispered conversations of the courtiers.

It is just a case of different spells for different jobs. The existing spell is fine, it just isn't the spell for the job that you want doing, apparently. Which is all good too. It just means that your character needs to invent the spell that you do want. The spells in the core book are by no means the best spells for all purposes.

Nice idea.

Seems an entirely clever, appropriate and unproblematic spell idea to me.

The only potential problem I see is that the AC is merely "in" the structure, not "to" the structure. Drop half a penny in the lowest dungeon, and you can listen to what's going on in the highest tower via the other half?... Maybe.

Some SG's/Troupes wouldn't draw the distinction, some would.

Be that as it may, these spelsl might be fine for casting at targets neatly placed in a room. However what should I use for Target in the versions I'd like to invent myself then?

Summoning the Distant Image for example, suppose my magus has painstakingly collected Arcane Connections to various places in his home city, and want to be able to use this spell for surveillance of the streets and plazas. Not a spell to see the whole city, but small portions, just as if he was standing at the site of the AC in question, and be able to see and hear what one could in this position oneself.
This seems outside the coverage of most Targets as I read it, barring the Target: Road connected to a Mystery. But that's not it either, since I don't want to see/hear everything happening on that road. Just at that particular site I nominate, and use the corresponding AC.

As for Winds of Mundane Silence, suppose I'm in the middle of a faerie forest, those pesky fae have used all sorts of annoying and incapacitating powers on the turb, my sodales and my self - but I'm not in a cosy room, so I can't blow it all away. What Target should I use here? Nothing exists to limit the size outside walls, so it's looking like Sight. Seems a bit much though, I'll never dispel anything but the weakest - and therefore not even worth the bother, perhaps - effects.

I'd say... Range: Arcane Connection, Target: Vision. Maybe +1 magnitude to also include hearing.

I'd say Target: Group.

This is actually specifically not allowed. Magical sense spells are one sense only.

However, looking more thoroughly at InCo(Im) Eye of the Sage: This spells requires an AC to a person, and allows you to see that person and the surroundings.
Made as an InTe(Im) spell, requiring AC to a building, statue or rock formation must then allo you to see said item and the immediate surroundings.
Both are bases on Base lvl 4 (sense very general information and see an object and surroundings)
Although 1 magnitude higher than simply seeing the inside of a room with straight InIm, requiring an AC to just anything inside this room.
But staying in InTe we see Sense the Feet that Tread the Earth InTe30 R:Touch D:Conc T:Part. So I touch the earth, and get info (probably based on feeling the tremors of those moving) up to a mile away. Not R:Arcane, so no need for an AC. But the information isn't as detailed as I'd like. I'd rather see and perhaps hear. But we see T:Part with size +3 allows sensing an area not bounded by a wall (like the Room of reguler InIm spells).
I get the "about 1 mile" range for size +3 apparently, a circle with radius 1 mile is huge. If a pace is about a yard, this is 1700 yards circle. What would the rate of reduction be for dropping a few Sizes?
If I instead made it a seeing spell R: Arcane and dropped the size of T:Part I'd get this: Base 4, +4 Arcane, +1 Conc, +1 Part = lvl 30
Since I pay through the nose for sensing a place at R:Arcane i shouldn't pay for the huge Size, otherwise needed if the range is simply Touch
With nothing added for size I'd probably get an area of about 15 paces. And the guidelines say "see an object and it's surroundings". This is the effect I'm looking for. Alternatively adding a magnitude for hearing as well. Range of 15 paces isn't as good as standing there, but definately better than nothing.
Now, if this could only be translates to straight Imaginem - since this art has lower guidelines for using senses at a distance...But with Imaginem being to intangible, the "base Individual size" is an image equivalent to a man sized object. I'd be all for boosting Target by 2 magnitudes, i just need something to call this Target, since it's silly it can only sense inside rooms, when we clearly see other spells being able to do this.

I don't know, maybe I should just use the InTe thing, even though my "size calculations" are a bit dodgy.
I mean a tenfold in mass per magnitude for size, that must be the same as a tenfold in volume - what with the density being constant. Base Individual for Terram is 10 cubic paces of dirt, that's a cube of 2,15 paces to a side. Size +3 is 3 times tenfold or 10x10x10x10=10000, still only a cube of 21,5 paces to a side.
If I want my senses to also see things at a height I can't just dump this height dimension, if I want to keep tabs on a city, I'd want to see the rooftops as well, or someone flying over them.
Frankly I don't think Sense the Feet... follow the guidelines mathematically correct. Could be a legacy from previous editions
Eye of the Sage only lets you see the dude and 1 pace around him. But that guideline says nothing about "surrounding area". Perhaps InTe spells are better at this? Perhaps the "surrounding area" means my natural senses? So I'm limited by obstructions, darkness, smoke etc.
But in it's in RAW I can comfortably make my own altered version of it, following the guidelines otherwise.

Sadly, a group needs to be well defined, and you need to sense it. Which you can't with such magics or power, unless you InVi identify them. The beauty of T:Room is that you don't have to know. I guess it does make sense. You don't need to know what - if anything - is there, as long as it's contained by the room, which you can sense, and concequently affect. If anything is there, otherwise the spell just blows emptyness away. Outside such nice confines, you'd need to sense the things to affect. Unless you meant group as being the group of grogs and magi currently under effect by some powers? In that case it should be just as ok as the room. But if the effects are on surroundings, not persons. Perhaps several circles of warding or whatever.