Does changing dur/range/target turn a formulaic into a spontaneous spell?

Hello,

Looking for a little clarity. If I have a formulaic spell with a target of individual and I wanted to expand that to group or room, does that make my formulaic spell into a spontaneous spell? How would expending a confidence point or fatigue work in this instance?

I know that there was a rules errata/update about this at some point recently but I'm not sure the DM I'm playing with wants to use them since we're a new bunch and still getting down a lot of the basics.

So I guess I'm asking how did it work before the rules update and what options would I, as a magi, have to increase my target group?

My specific example if it helps: I have a creo corpus spell that freezes/paralyzes an individual enemy for a duration of 2 minutes. I have 9 creo and 9 corpus, +2 stamina, no aura mod. It's a formulaic spell. I want to extend that to a group size target. Does increasing group size mean it becomes a spontaneous spell, which means I'm now dividing my casting total by either 2 if I expend a fatigue or 5 if I don't?

Or, does changing range, duration, target of a formulaic spell not count as spontaneous? I guess that's really the crux of the questions. What constitutes a spontaneous spell? Is it any modification to a formulaic spell or is it coming up with something brand new that you have no foundational spells for?

Thanks and sorry if this is beating a dead horse. I tried searching for spont. spell threads but didn't see an answer.

Unless you have some relevant virtue, you can't change any of the parameters (level, range, duration, target, size, etc) of a formulaic spell when you cast it.

If you want to change one (or more) of the parameters you will have to invent it as a new spell. (With a small bonus for knowing a similar spell.)

There are some virtues that allow you to change a formulaic spell in limited ways on the fly (Flexible Formulaic Magic, Boosted Magic), but the formulaic spell remains a formulaic spell.

Spontaneous spells are spells that you essentially invent as you cast it. They are not something you can "know" in advance.

As far as I am aware, none of the above has been changed in errata.

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Cool. Thanks Erik. I don't remember what the latest errata tweak was that I'm thinking of but I could totally be misremembering the details.

So basically, barring virtues, if I wanted to tweak a formulaic spell during combat in the manner described above, it counts as a brand new spell and would be classified as a spontaneous spell.

Thanks for clearing that up!

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MuVi Wizard's Reach on p160 does it for Range. You'll have Concentration issues though.

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And in that case it wouldn't be any actual tweaking done, but just the casting of a spontaneous spell that doesn't really have anything to do with any formulaic spell.

Yeah that makes sense and a good clarification. Thanks again!

Thanks for that heads up Tugdual! Is wizard's boost the equivalent for target magnitude? Reading over the muto vim guidelines it looks like it'd be possible to cast wizard's reach or boost at the same time as the spell you want it to effect. Is that correct? If so, is this a sort of exception to the idea that a mage can only cast 1 spell per combat round (except under specific virtues or mastery conditions?).

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We do not have a canon spell that changes target, but it would use the same guideline as Wizard's Reach and Wizard's Boost, meaning you can change it from Target Individual (+0) to Target Part (+1), but to change to Target Group, you'd need to change it by two Magnitudes (Group +2), which means you need the MuVi spell to be much higher level.

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I realise this isn't your actual question, but your specific spell doesn't sound like a Creo spell to me - much more Rego, or maybe Perdo.

A mage can only (aside from fast-casting) cast one spell in a combat round. A Momentary MuVi spell is cast the round before the spell it is to modify; in this case 'Momentary' is understood to stretch until the end of the mage's next action which is important because a MuVi spell must have a duration long enough to last throughout the casting of the target spell.

To cast two MuVi spells to modify another spell, the first one will need to last longer than 'Momentary'. Not only does Concentration become an issue, but it may be a troupe / storyguide decision as to whether the first MuVi can even 'skip' a spell instead of targeting the very next one the magi casts.

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There is (was?) a thread about what exactly Wizard's Boost does. There was no resolution.
You could design the equivalent of Wizard's Reach for the Target parameter easily enough though. Just remember that you're changing it 2 steps, so it gets pretty hard (see the MuVi guidelines).

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Thank you everyone! That's some awesome info.

Considering the speed progress of our campaign (still spring cov. newbie mages) and the difficulty of expanding the target I'm probably better off just inventing a new spell with group target size once I am capable of doing so.

And I might not have given the right criteria for the spell. Rego does make more sense!

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That's usually my situation as well. Only true Vim specialists are likely to find the MuVi route faster/easier, for a 2-step change.