As I understand it, the manipulation of heat doesn't come into this. Ice is a natural part of the Aquam Form --> Ice is cold --> When the water becomes ice, it is cold. If you wanted to manipulate the heat so that it was warm ice, it would be ReAq(Ig). I think that, if the ice formed via ReAq (with no requisite) were warm, it would say so on page 124 somewhere.
On a slightly separate note, where does Elemental Magic make special dispensation for creation and destruction?
Sorry, not 'Elemental Magic' the virtue, but 'magic of the elements'. The start of this thread referenced a sidebar on ArM p79.
Sorry, I didn't fully edit out the "generation". When I originally wrote it I was getting sidetracked and going down the Aristotelian rabbit hole again.
The spell chills the target, a person.
The thing I think that gets muddled with the elements here imo is "heat" as a quality of a thing to be manipulated or a thing to be manipulated itself. The way I have been interpreting things is Fire the element has the quality of heat. Manipulation of the element of Fire within other elements, life, etc affects the attribute of the Fire, heat. With life having an Inner Fire, generated by the heart, etc.
I know what RAW say. It says Ignem manipulates heat. So I've applied that to the other elements when trying to extrapolate spell effects, since heat is a quality of Fire.
Throwing Fire at someone I view as different from manipulation of a living being's heat. Just like the element of Water is in and part of living beings. The element of Fire is in a living being and part of that being. Not "heat". A person isn't warm, a person has Fire in them that has the quality warm.
One doesn't have to interpret things this way, I just think it's implied by the rest of the material. Since medicine operates on the four humours... if you allow Ignem complete access to manipulate the humours via heat(no Corpus req to make people hot or cold) and exclude the others their role, I honestly don't know what you're doing about medicine. You either need to change medicine or accept that Ignem can affect moods and health without Corpus.
This actually brings up a good point I'd like to follow. You Ignem can manipulate fire, light, and heat (and their abscences). In a brief re-reading of Ignem intro section, it regularly uses the terms 'fire', 'light', and 'heat' as seperate things. When you create heat (or cool things), are you manipulating an aspect of 'fire' or just manipulating heat as it's own thing - just like marble stone and silver metal are separate 'things' that fall under an aspect of 'earth'. Or Are marble and silver qualities of 'earth'? You can certainly have cool light in Ars Magica, as its a common occurance.
I've never really viewed elemental essences as 'part' of a person or object. I've never really viewed a person's body heat as elemental fire, nor their blood as elemental water.
Raccoonmask and I swapped a message about ReAq ice.
My suss (which is not backed by RAW spell guidelines) is that it creates ice at the same temperature of naturally occuring ice, that cold is enough to inflict a small amount of chilling damage (say +3 damage), and the spell will sustain the ice at that temperature until the spell duration expires. When the spell expires the ice will either melt or remain according to the surrounding conditions, as it will react naturally from then on.
Why? The ReAq is magically performing an otherwise "natural change", in a manner similar to other rego spells. I think that is a simple approach which does not get bogged down in play. It also suits my bias for the purposes of an ice wizard created a while ago who used ReAq ice for a variety of purposes in freezing climates. So ice created by ReAq is cold enough to damage which is far colder than room temperature.
A sample spell which implies this but does not explicitly state rules to match my opinion above is Shackles of the Frozen Ice, ReAq10, HoH:S 35 - where ice forms around a target ignoring any MR the target might have, however MR does protect the target from the chilling effect of the ice as it is magically sustained for D:Sun.
So, the cold from ReAq is a side-effect of transforming the ice, rather than the method of transforming the ice. The water turns to ice, it happens to be cold. Kind of like how murdering a grog is a side-effect of creating a bonfire under him or a rock above him.
This interpretation avoids room-temperature ice and steam, and suggests that after you stop concentrating (or whatever) there will be residual effect - it takes minutes for ice to melt in average american water, and water near the ice may become frosted as well. Maybe rounds in a hot environment. By comparison, if you take the 'room temp ice' idea, it immediately becomes water again apon spell expiry.
How do you guys approach the magnitude of spells and damage to apply?
I'm working on powers etc and don't know if I'm doing damage fairly. I've been adding Ignem magnitudes to things to be hot and doing damage being hot.
Obsidian Viper
(Ter[Ig]) 35GP
Base: 3 (glass and stone)
+1 Touch, continuous +3, ind, Ignem req +4m
Terrem base create 'glass and stone'
Brawl to hit, injection with bite. Can spend a fatigue and spit up to 10 paces.
+1 step above "molten iron", +15 a round base exposure.
Variable Power based upon Might/5 - levels of variance applied to magnitude of Ignem requirement current increase +2m
**+21 per round base exposure
Since a level 10 Ignem is Melt Lead, considering +2m to be "molten lead" on the heat and corrosion chart. Also considering each +1m to be an increase of +3 on the chart.
Are these correct assessments for damage?
Full immersion is next to impossible with this particular beast.
However if the same damage scaling were done instead of on a power, a spell. The 2 magnitudes can be taken off the duration and applied to size and range.
An equivalent hermetic spell would be CrTe[Ig] level 35
voice, diameter, room lava ball that does +15 damage base exposure, which is +60 damage per round full immersion.
I’m not following the mechanics of how the snake bite works, and what it does when it bites. Probably my fault for it being late here.
That said, for the comparison to a spell:
No, it's my fault for not posting my question directly.
So what you're saying is no need for Ignem to scale damage?
There are no listings for damage or base level in Terrem. The moment I try to extrapolate damage of other forms everyone loses their minds. So I'm just using Ignem for everything.
So... the spell can be lowered a further magnitude since the target is a person to be enveloped? Change it to individual? Then there is no need to have a finesse or targeting roll, since the person is the target and not the surrounding area.
The Drake with the power either spits or injects after a bite, both require attack rolls. It has variable power Virtue tied to it so the +1 magnitude every 5 Might is added to the Ignem requisite.
I'm saying that the lava generated by the base effect does not need Ignem, however it will need ignem to scale up damage.
eg.
CrTe10 = Creates lava inflicting +15 when it splashes somebody and up to +60 if they are full immersed in it (CrTe base 10)
CrTe/Ig 15 = If you increase that damage to +20 the spell must become (CrTe Base 10, +1 mag for +5 extra damage and Ig requisite)
CrTe/Ig 20 = If you increase that damage to +25 the spell must become (CrTe Base 10, +2 mags for +10 extra damage and Ig requisite)
To envelop a target you'll need a fair amount of lava, so +1 mag might be enough, but I think +2 mags is better for size. It depends on the base size of lava, which I cannot find at present (is it 1 inch, 1 foot, 1 pace, 10 paces?).
The target of the spell for Creo is always the thing being created. The moving the created material around is sometimes cosmetic, or a secondary effect, or another spell (varies with the form of the spell). Where is appears is limited by the range of the spell, and how precise is sometimes a contention. After reading some Ignem and Aquam spells, I'm thinking now that you may not need it anyway as some of those spells to not need targeting either (like Mighty Torrent of Water, Ars p.121); however Terram effects sometimes require Finesse to drop stones on people but other forms do not.
Should lava be guided by terram (which typically needs Rego or Finesse), or from Aquam or Ignem (which does not)? No idea really, perhaps as terram spells as it is terram, but thats a real line call.
...roughly spec'ed as spells ... (I have no idea what the base amount created by Lava is, so I've assumed it is 1 cubic foot)
Ball of Burning Lava
Creo Terram 20, R: Voice, D: Momentary, T: Individual
A ball of lava covers a small area within range. This inflicts +15 damage to items and people splashed by the lava. This spell creates 1 cubic foot ball of lava.
(Base 10, +2 Voice)
Spray of Molten Lava
Creo Terram 35, R: Voice, D: Concentration, T: Individual
for as long as you concentrate a jet of lava sprays from your outstretched hand and covers an area within range. This inflicts +15 damage to items and people splashed by the lava, +20 for those partially covered, and up to +60 damage for anyone fully enveloped by the stream. This spell creates a cube of lava 100 cubic feet in size each round, enough to cover several people or the side of a building.
(Base 10, +2 Voice, +1 Concentration, +2 size)
Erruption of Molten Lava
Creo Terram / Ignem 45, R: Voice, D: Momentary, T: Individual
A massive spraysof lava is created within the target area. This inflicts +25 damage to items and people splashed by the lava, +30 for those partially covered, and up to +70 damage for anyone fully enveloped by the stream. This spell creates a cube of lava up to 1000 cubic feet, enough to envelop a small building.
(Base 10, +2 Voice, +3 size, +2 inflicts +10 extra damage, Ignem Req)
(edited for horrible typos)
I can't speel or tipe
Right, the target of the spell. The target of the bad day is the person or thing which has the spell errupt on them. Which gets hazy with powers and lightning bolts.
For a lightning bolt, which is the target... the cloud from which it springs or the person I want hit? The book has a bolt springing from ones hands TO a person, requing an unobstructed path from finger to person. If one wanted a natural lightning bolt to hit the person, then it would just shoot from the cloud to the person. BUT the target to Creo Auram is the weather phenomina where it's created. Which makes a lightning bolt +magnitudes either way. Then the moment you make a Vim Tunnel to the cloud everyone loses their minds at a lvl 10 lightning bolt that requires no targeting.
Targeting rolls seem to be added once people flip out at 'easy damage'. Instead of when things are incidental causal effects that interact with the environment.
Some powers of dragons, most really, have Voice range for fire. So then, no need to 1: breath the fire or 2: have unobstructed path. One dragon has a touch group based poison attack, it touches the air which is valid for Auram. But then it has a Personal Power... that is venom from fangs, which i swear is also touch. My assumption is the touch on the latter is just so people dont argue. Though the power is continuous, so I think the intent is the dragons venom is always poison.
Muto Auram spells seem to drive the forums nutty as well. Since the target is a weather phenomina, the Ind target of an Auram spell is anywhere from a bolt of lightning to the blowing wind, the latter people dont realize can be up to the size of a boundry.
If the wind is blowing and you touch the wind, you can use Touch and Part to affect the same wind surounding someone else. Better visualized mentally with the phenomina Fog. You and someone else are in the fog, you touch the fog and use part to affect the fog surounding someone. Loosely people will use 'target' to refer to the person surounded by fog you're mutating, since they are the one having the 'bad day'. Which I think is one of many reasons discussion on spells, at least online, can get confusing.
I've always thought the CrAu lightning-bolt spells are targetting the lightning bolt being created. The reason they're Voice range rather than touch range is so the caster isn't getting hit by it on the other end, and the 'thrown from hand' is kind of flavor-effect rather than the actual source.
But then, this is just how I interpreted it, I never looked into it mechanically; When my Auram mage in game asked why she couldn't touch-range lightningbolt someone, I told her it was because she didn't want to take the damage.
Exactly. I have the same view.
IoL would be mechanically the same spell if the lightning appeared next to the victim or if the lightning cosmetically travels across to them. The same with the Pillum of Fire, BoAF, and such. The spell's range dictates how far away the created material will be from the caster.
I think it also makes sense that damaging spells are not created at Range: Touch without also hurting the caster, or using a Rego requisite to protect the caster (I think there is a Fire spell which demonstrates this too).
It is here:
To envelop a human in magically created lava requires at least some 25 cubic feet, or indeed (by ArM5 p.113 box Targets and Sizes) some +2 magnitudes for the size of the the created individual blob of lava. The spell needs not to be aimed (see ArM5 p.86 Aiming), but is of course resisted by MR.
Cheers
Thank you OneShot - awesome stuff. Spells below updated for Base 5 (as metal), and a cubic foot. It makes lava based spells look reasonable as another source of damage.
Ball of Burning Lava
Creo Terram 15, R: Voice, D: Momentary, T: Individual
A ball of lava covers a small area within range. This inflicts +15 damage to items and people splashed by the lava. This spell creates 1 cubic foot ball of lava.
(Base 5, +2 Voice)
Spray of Molten Lava
Creo Terram 30, R: Voice, D: Concentration, T: Individual
for as long as you concentrate a jet of lava sprays from your outstretched hand and covers an area within range. This inflicts +15 damage to items and people splashed by the lava, +20 for those partially covered, and up to +60 damage for anyone fully enveloped by the stream. This spell creates a cube of lava 100 cubic feet in size each round, enough to cover people or the side of a building.
(Base 5, +2 Voice, +1 Concentration, +2 size)
Erruption of Molten Lava
Creo Terram / Ignem 40, R: Voice, D: Momentary, T: Individual
A massive sprays of lava is created within the target area. This inflicts +25 damage to items and people splashed by the lava, +30 for those partially covered, and up to +70 damage for anyone fully enveloped by the stream. This spell creates a cube of lava up to 1000 cubic feet, enough to envelop a small building.
(Base 5, +2 Voice, +3 size, +2 inflicts +10 extra damage, Ignem Req)
Ahh, much lower base than I had expected. I used base 15 for an elementalist only spell. Which did damage from the Terrem once. The following uses all 4 elements. However it can be designed without using all of them? First changing the wind into a whirlwind of Fire, then lava, then encasing with 'water'. So the center is molten, then a layer of solid obsidian (the Maga and her Familiar are thematically similar), in a whirlwind of broken shards.
I posed my thought process making the spell. Which was just using base 15 for multiple elements. Base 10 being wholly unnatural for Muto Auram.
The Marriage Dance of Djinns
MuAu level 30 Elementalist only.
Base:15 , +1 touch, +1 diameter, +1 part
Only available to cast in an existing wind.
The caster holds her outstretched arms to the wind and designates an area it touches. Then spins. Once and the wind dances with her. Twice ignites it's passions. Thrice promises it's commitment. She stopping only to bind consequence.
Contested Athletics (victims if any) vs Finesse(caster) roll.
Victim wins: +25 damage immediately, +24 a round from heat, +20 a round from whirlwind of glass. Per round damage from separate sources, soak individually. If the victim is able to fully escape, +12 damage per round until spell ends.
Victim loses: +48 damage per round from heat. Check for deprivation every 5 rounds. If victim escapes caramel nugget center, see above.
Question about this: Its listed as creating 100 cubic feet of lava per round, which is like, 700 gallons of lava. I thought duration on Creo spells increases how long the conjured substance exists, rather than giving you more rounds to summon it. The way this is worded, it sounds like the second round, you've created a second 100-cubic-foot pool of lava. Cast this while flying over the countryside, and you can re-enact Pompeii. Or does every gallon of lava shooting from your hand mean another gallon disappears from previously created material?
Basically, how many cubic feet of lava do you get after 3 rounds?
My point is it doesn't require the layering process, as a matter of fact only requires transformation into Terrem. Nothing explodes in the spell, it's a Fire Whirl with glass, which come about very quickly. There are some spells which have been designed for this character which do seem better coming about over multiple rounds.
Then again I don't think any of the thunderstorm summoning spells instantly create their storms.
My question is on the damage with an elementalist spell as the magnitude of the spell can be much lower.
Here is also a weird thing I read recently "casting with requisites" that is casting an already existing spell with requisites after the spell was designed without. It's implied in a few places it's a thing, it's not supposed to be is it? Otherwise an elementalist can just add requisite they'll ignore to every spell.
I just got Hermetic Projects. Looks like it has a Lava blood ritual which is similar in base, possibly lower level than what I was doing.
These spells are much lower than what I was making. I was adding 4 magnitudes of Ignem requirement to do what looks like is a base 5 effect.