Enchanting the Covenant

[Xavi]

I stand corrected What about the covenant (muystic tower) enchanted as an item. It is true tha tit is a single stone block (plus wooden doors if you include those in the structure) so not that many mateirals.

Hermetic architecture would seem to be needed for more loosely (mundanely constructed) structures, but for a magically created chunk of stone, that might work

Xavi

[Mark_Shirley]

@Fruny

That, of course, assumes I have a high enough magic theory to enchant a compound device with the required number of components.

We checked those rules, and agreed that components in a compound device are determined by type, not number. So my staff can have three rubies on it if I find it aesthetically pleasing, but this only counts as one component. So the number of bricks or rooms becomes less relevant. I believe this to be a valid interpretation, although it could be read another way which would be equally valid.

Mark

[Mark_Shirley]

@marklawford

As with the other responses, I agree that the item to be enchanted needs to be within a laboratory.

A lot of people are quoting this as a rule, but there is no such rule. Futhermore, you can build a lab according to the covenant rules which encompasses the whole covenant (Size 10, Occupied Size 0).

Allowing this does not invalidate Hermetic Architecture, which has other benefits.

It is interesting to see that others are coming up with the same solutions as me to say that this can't be so, and yet they are all areas in which the rules are silent.

Mark

[Mark_Shirley]

@Cuchulainshound

@Mark Shirley

The enchantment rules state that, for a compound object, you can either prepare the sum of all the components, or the single largest component. Given that the covenant is a collection of rooms made of wood or stone, and assuming that the single most costly component is a huge object of soft stone (that is, a room)...

I'm not 100% convinced this is a perfectly kosher interpretation (and this may be part of your own uncertainty?) A block is part of a room, a room is part of the structure... but that could be a stretch to then claim that by enchanting the block you can claim the entire structure as "Range:Personal". (see page 97 for lack of specific rules).

But this is the point of compound items. If I only prepare for enchantment the iron spearhead of a spear, I can still strengthen the spearshaft with an instilled effect at R: Per. The same is true of the structure.

@Cuchulainshound

By that same logic, one could argue that enchanting a leaf allows an entire forest to be "Range:Personal" (leaf to tree, tree to grove, grove to forest)

I disagree. Once you get beyond tree you are dealing with a different individual. You can only prepare one item for enchantment at a time - a compound item has to be fully attached

@Cuchulainshound

, or by enchanting a single grain of sand one can claim the entire island of England as "Range:Personal" (sand to beach, beach to shore, shore to coast, coast to island).

Again, no. A single grain of sand is an object in its own right.

@Cuchulainshound

(Or, if it needs to be a more artificial construct, a single brick to an entire walled town.)

This one I would have to agree with, if I was to let this fly.

@Cuchulainshound

Especially when such an enchantment opens the door to claiming Shape and Material bonuses that are some other part of "the larger whole", there is, to me, some difference between a staff made up of several elements and a castle made up of infinite elements. An doorway? A hearth? A window? A kitchen, a tower, a cellar, a gate, a sewer, a window, a flag, stones, doors, locks, sconces... (Perhaps requiring that these elements be listed, specifically and individually? And that no part is left out if it is more significant than another equal one.)

What it comes down to, I guess, is the mystical significance of the component, and whether you want to benefit from a Shape and Material bonus. I allow magi to adorn enchantments (especially talismans) with jewels and metals which are not included in the enchantment. They do not count as a component when preparing for enchantment, but neither can the magus claim an S&M bonus. They are purely for show (and for misinformation - prominantly displaying a green turquoise is liable to get you pegged as a necromancer).

@Cuchulainshound

Mark surely sees this...(ouch, sorry), but I'll spell it out for newer players - it's not necessary illegal, it's not necessarily "bad", but it's the type of Ruling that a StoryGuide has to be careful of, and think through to its logical, extreme conclusion. Much depends on the players and where the SG thinks the players will take that ruling. If you have "reasonable" players and a reasonable relationship with them, then such a ruling will not be made unreasonable. If not... you have only yourself to blame.

Fortunately I have a reasonable group, who obey Rule 7*. What is interesting is to hear other people's objections to the scheme.

Mark

• Rule 7: Don't Take The Piss

[marklawford]

@Mark Shirley

@marklawford

As with the other responses, I agree that the item to be enchanted needs to be within a laboratory.

A lot of people are quoting this as a rule, but there is no such rule.

Interesting. I wonder where that came from then... I'll have to re-read that chapter to get it straight for my own saga.

@Mark Shirley

Futhermore, you can build a lab according to the covenant rules which encompasses the whole covenant (Size 10, Occupied Size 0).

Which is what I was alluding to with my church example. I actually like the idea of the tower or other building encased in scaffolding while the magus enchants it. As you say, there's no restriction on how big or what shape the lab has to be. This one just gets to be scaffolding shaped.

[Xavi]

Err.... enchanting items is a lab activity. lab activities are performed INSIDE the lab, right?

Xavi

[LuciusT]

@marklawford

@Mark Shirley

@marklawford

As with the other responses, I agree that the item to be enchanted needs to be within a laboratory.

A lot of people are quoting this as a rule, but there is no such rule.

Interesting. I wonder where that came from then... I'll have to re-read that chapter to get it straight for my own saga.

The closest I can find is this passage

@Ars Magica Fifth Edition

You must take the time to prepare your laboratory for the task, gather all the necessary materials and equipment, and then craft your work in earnest, exercising great care with the details of the enchantment.

I can envision a magus-mason working parts of the enchantment on each stone of a structure in his lab before handing them over to the workmen to be assembled into the whole.

I'll also point out that boats, wagons and small rooms are examples given in the rules for size "huge" in the Materials and Size Tables on page 97 and halls and rooms are listed in the Shape and Material Bonuses table on page 110. This says to me that it is possible to create a magic item that is a hall or small room.

[Fhtagn]

@Mark Shirley

@marklawford

As with the other responses, I agree that the item to be enchanted needs to be within a laboratory.

A lot of people are quoting this as a rule, but there is no such rule. Futhermore, you can build a lab according to the covenant rules which encompasses the whole covenant (Size 10, Occupied Size 0).

There is, albeit indirectly. Laboratory activities require a laboratory which is prepared and equipped for such purposes - the only pseudo-lab-activity I know of which doesn't is studying from vis and that is specified as not requiring a lab. Given the time required to set up a lab (It doesn't take 6 months to clear a bench and set up come glassware), it seems reasonable that this preparation is significant to the rituals requried for enchantment. Since you must enchant in a lab, and you cannot enchant a thing you don't possess, what is being enchanted must be in the lab.

As you say, you can build your lab around the subject, however. Indeed, that's exactly what TM:RE (page 97) says magi do for enchanting a ship, for instance.

[caribet]

@Fhtagn

@Mark Shirley

@marklawford

As with the other responses, I agree that the item to be enchanted needs to be within a laboratory.

A lot of people are quoting this as a rule, but there is no such rule. Futhermore, you can build a lab according to the covenant rules which encompasses the whole covenant (Size 10, Occupied Size 0).

There is, albeit indirectly. Laboratory activities require a laboratory which is prepared and equipped for such purposes - the only pseudo-lab-activity I know of which doesn't is studying from vis and that is specified as not requiring a lab. Given the time required to set up a lab (It doesn't take 6 months to clear a bench and set up come glassware), it seems reasonable that this preparation is significant to the rituals requried for enchantment. Since you must enchant in a lab, and you cannot enchant a thing you don't possess, what is being enchanted must be in the lab.

As you say, you can build your lab around the subject, however. Indeed, that's exactly what TM:RE (page 97) says magi do for enchanting a ship, for instance.

Building a lab around a ship is expensive and time consuming, and if it really is on built around the one thing you are building, then it's very expensive in time...

So that's why TMRE adds a Mystery built around the concept of "can't fit it into the lab, so make special 'bits' which will fit and can be stuck on to act as if enchanting the bigger thing" (OK - "Hermetic Architecture" is a neater term - but that's what it does!).

[Thijs]

I reckoned it would just take 2 seasons to build such a lab, but according to Covenants the safety of such a big laboratory is terrifying.....(size = -1 safety...IIRC)

[Fhtagn]

@Thijs

I reckoned it would just take 2 seasons to build such a lab, but according to Covenants the safety of such a big laboratory is terrifying.....(size = -1 safety...IIRC)

Two seasons to convert it to a lab after it has been built, which will also take a while. On the other hand, since it'd be a lab custom designed for a specific purpose, perhaps just one season and having it have a hefty penalty for all other lab activities would be better. Either way, it'll take at least a season to build a decent structure of any real size unless you shore it up with magic a great deal, and the warping score your lab would end up with then would be ... hefty.

[Xavi]

@Fhtagn

(...) since it'd be a lab custom designed for a specific purpose, perhaps just one season and having it have a hefty penalty for all other lab activities would be better.

That just made me think about magi having 4 or 5 labs, one specialized in each lab activity to the detriment of the other ones... Seems it might be a good idea, in fact....

Now I see a use for a 5-store mystic tower for a single magus...

Xavi

[Fhtagn]

@Xavi

@Fhtagn

(...) since it'd be a lab custom designed for a specific purpose, perhaps just one season and having it have a hefty penalty for all other lab activities would be better.

That just made me think about magi having 4 or 5 labs, one specialized in each lab activity to the detriment of the other ones... Seems it might be a good idea, in fact....

Now I see a use for a 5-store mystic tower for a single magus...

My last covenant did in fact have some communal labs, specialised in teaching, vis extraction and writing, for use in your seasons of service to the covenant.

[Xavi]

I meant each mage having several personal labs in his sanctum, each room specialize din an activity. Not a single lab per magus but 5 or 6 labs per magus. All personal and all part of his sanctum. Quite a difference here The communal labs for the covenant are also a usual feature IMS.

Cheers,

Xavi

[JeanMichelle]

my 2cents:

1. How do the Rhine Verditius build ships? Do they use hermetic architecture.
2. Would the Parma interact with a magic covenant (imagine this: your magus enchants his covenant as a magic item that is supposed to warm him. All the magi are then pushed out by their own PM)

[Xavi]

Why would they be pushed out at all?

Xavi

[JeanMichelle]

If a Parma protects you from a magic sword, why not from a magic covenant?

[Fruny]

@JeanMichelle

If a Parma protects you from a magic sword, why not from a magic covenant?

Hilarious.

[Xavi]

Jean, at this point I will suggest rereading the MR rules There seems to be some confusion here The thing here is that you find the covenant to be a cold place, not that it has a "no trespass" sign over the door.

CHeers,

Xavi

[Mark_Shirley]

@Xavi

Jean, at this point I will suggest rereading the MR rules There seems to be some confusion here The thing here is that you find the covenant to be a cold place, not that it has a "no trespass" sign over the door.

It wouldn't even be a cold place. The covenant is being warmed, not the individuals in it. The hot stones of the walls radiate the heat, which the magi can feel, parma or no parma. This is exactly the same process that allows magi to see magically created or altered images, or be illuminated by a magical light source.

Mark