AFAICS, the effects of SoFD and SoOM are magical, and are certainly 'dispellable' by the PeIm Gen Disenchant ritual (ArM5 p.160) together with the magical effects they hide. So SoFD, SoOM are not your typical Creo rituals creating/restoring nonmagical things.
SoFD, SoOM and Disenchant are all rituals which take control of an enchanted device. SoFD and SoOM in particular create shells in the enchanted device which cloud or mask its other effects. AFAICS SoFD, SoOM and Disenchant are rituals because Vis is needed to affect the magical effects created by Vis in the device. As Vis is used to create the shells, too, they also last indefinitely, like the effects they hide.
From this I conclude, that Hermetic rituals just removing an SoFD or SoOM and leaving the other magical effects in the device intact are also possible: but perhaps most magi capable of inventing them at a useful level prefer to save their Vis and beat the shells rather than remove them, as once beaten during investigation they favor the device's new owner.

Kind regards,


So you feel this is a point for errata then? Because the rules doesn't seem suport your view as far as I can determine.

So you need vis to destroy vis?

I think the description of SoFD and SoOM are a legacy from earlier editions, and the consequenses for creo rituals in 5th have been missed when it come sto creo vim rituals.

Even Cr rituals need to comply with the essential nature limit.

Aldo you are right Cr ritual can do much... given a sufficiant level, the result needs to always be natural for what that is created.

Here's how I'd correct the text (because I do believe that it is a problem with the system)

I'd append a sentance to the end of each spell descrition saying

"This spell was a product of research by <insert name of verditius or Bonisagus here, perhaps Himnus the mad> who was attempting to find a way of creating enchanted devices more quickly. His research was never finished but this spell and (the other spell) have become usable parts of hermetic theory."

This way you can have the spell as it is and not worry about the fact that it is a permanent spell that does not have natural consiquences, (because it's not , it's a quicky enchanted device).

I like Erik's proposal. It is consistent with other spells that don't fit into the normal system. These two spells would be exceptions to the rule that have for whatever reason, spread across the Order.

Not quite. A pushy companion, a bored grog with a warhammer, a careless apprentice or a hungry familiar are enough. :laughing:

We are talking about metamagic here, and hence have to take the rules with a pinch of salt to avoid nonsense interpretations.
The crucial rule AFAICS is ArM5 p.112: "Ritual Creo spells with Momentary durations create things that last as any other thing of that type. The magic is gone in a moment and so cannot be dispelled. This also applies to ritual healing spells."
So if I have a D:Mom CrVi ritual, the magical stuff it creates last as any other magical stuff of that type, while the magic that creates it is gone in an instant and cannot be dispelled. The shells created by SoOM or SoFD are something like an effect in an enchanted item, hence last like such, hence cannot be dispelled like spells but need to be disenchanted like effects in devices.

I like this idea very much: it gives people the right idea immediately. :smiley:

Kind regards,


Has a nice ring to it. Would all CrVi rituals benefit from this breakthru? Hmmmm,I guess we can all decide that within our respective campains.

Thanks to all of you for you precious imput!