I think I've been dancing around the central issue. I'm having trouble seeing the entire concept in a cohesive and well thought out form. There are inconsistencies that I can't get around, but a well written backstory reflective of jar advancement could explain a lot. This could explain how low self-esteem and optimistic, major work together. Why did Eve turn to self-initiations? What caused her to pursue this path? Why did she get initiated into so many Verditius mysteries but hasn't produced anything? Shouldn't the Verditius initiations be based on production of items in some way? I'm not sure all the inconsistencies can be resolved, but hopefully you willbe able to see them and rectify them as you write her story. A backstory will also help jebrick out because unless you change a flaw to a story flaw, it is harder to put a the stories into a cohesive theme.
That is standard for her cult.
Lets see here, power and fun... why wouldn't she pursue this path?
Parens trying to get her in the cult. Presumably she has produced stuff, but she traded it for books to learn from or whatever.
I took them straight out of the book.
That doesn't really fly, not in the Verditius. You get by with making items and teaching others. You're not allowed to learn Mysteries without passing them on. Then of course is the fact that if she built things it would show in her advancement scheme.
House Verditius is not a Cult ! The Verditius as a House don't worship anything (except perhaps their own navel) !
As for production, the character creation rules just aren't set up for them (how do you account for the vis cost of an item that was made then sold ?). For that matter it's canon that the Verditius Gauntlet is making an enchanted item which is then presented to the parens, and Verditius don't get to start with an extra Lab Note for that. Presumably in the blanket xp / year there's some for exposure while doing lab work on products the magus doesn't keep.
Diotima has the same problem: she is famous for her translations, but in her character creation there's not one season devoted to actually doing them. Jebrick actually told me when I asked that any translation I wanted to bring with me would have to come out of covenant build points. If you think about it, any other solution is madness, since it would allow Diotima to show with pretty much any high level summa she wanted on the grounds she spent a couple of seasons translating it... And for Eve, it would mean going straight to extremely detailed character creation.
You're right, it is stated as being common. It also says that there is a lot of time spent pouring over ancient scripts. Which suggests adventure to the far corners of Mythic Europe.
That is a very lame reason. It suggest nothing about the character of Eve. It says more about you as a player, than it does anything about the character. Qcipher and Halancar have pretty solid concepts, and I can see such characters that they are creating existing. I'm currently in the process of writing Ophelia's back story, and that of her Immortals, and when I was asking some of the same questions I asked you, I thought I would be helpful and suggest you do the same. Now, I didn't state it gently, but gentle persuasion seems to be lost on you.
Pretty big presumption, since according to her advancement she spent 3 or 4 seasons actually doing enchanting work.
This is entirely what is wrong with Eve. And it goes back to your comment, "Rules are for people who want to use them." Well, yes, they are. But your character is extremely cherry picked to satisfy the demands of the player. I've tried suggesting this gently, but I've lost patience with that approach. I don't think you're going to enjoy this saga, with the character you've made. You have created numerous inconsistencies which any capable SG could exploit mercilessly. You're going to feel picked on, and I'm not going to feel like sticking up for you if the SG were to make an egregiously wrong decision, because you've been so obstinate on pursuing this path, and not adjusting your character into something approaching reasonable and thematic. My suspension of disbelief on your character has been blown to smithereens. You could adjust some things, related to her story that make it more believable, but you've instead decided to respond to my criticisms directly. I'm here because I want good stories, about the covenant, and Ophelia, and to watch other's stories. If you don't mind playing a character that is going to be stymied at almost every turn when she's trying to relentlessly pursue her goals, that's different. But nothing in what I've seen from you suggests that's anything close to being the case.
I could be convinced that she did actually make and sell stuff, if she had spent more than 3 or 4 seasons out of 120 actually making things. That's like 2.5% to 3.3% of the time available to her. She spent more time in initiations than she did making stuff! I've seen a Verditius with less time post gauntlet spend more than 4 seasons in the lab making stuff. The House, if you prefer it to cult, does ask that its members make stuff, and teach initiates what they know.
Halancar, I have almost no issues with your concept overall, not nearly to the degree that I do with Eve's. Keep in mind, I'm mentioning multiple things and almost always the response is cherry picked to address one or two points, but not all, and the answers seem to focus on the desires of the player rather than the desires of the character. I can accept that she's known for translations, she's sold them, without seeing her spending time doing translations just a bit more than I could do with Eve. It makes a lot less sense for a Verditius, who, by and large, are known for making items. And a Verditius with high hubris will also part with them unwillingly, which suggests that Eve should be in possession of numerous items. Further, with Weak Spontaneous magic, one would think that she would be in possession of a number of items with a wide variety of effects. If you want to trade a season of translating for experience, you are, of course, welcome to do this. Of course, some things are harder to do with this particular character generation method. I stipulate to that. It really isn't the point, though. Your issue with me taking issue with Eve's lack of items fails to address some other compelling questions that I've asked. It's not just one problem in general, it's the character as a whole that is problematic. Questions and suggestions have been repeatedly and obstinately rebuffed.
Actually that's kind of my point, in the character generation rules a lot of lab time is abstracted out.
Now that is an interesting point. I don't accept your argument that she didn't make enough items for her initiations, but I will agree that it's strange she doesn't own more herself.
Maybe. But to be honest, you have been criticizing pretty much every character, and in many cases not over rules (as far as I can tell Eve's character is legal) but over character consistency, background, or plain judgement calls on rule interpretation. The problem is, you are not the ST, just another player. Why should your opinion have any more value than Lamech's or mine ? If the ST can't work Eve in his story, there's a problem of course, but that's for the ST to tell us.
Yes, I'm a prima donna. But you're wrong, I've criticized a number of his rules interpretations which were just flat out wrong. And while my critique now is about story, it's probably the most important and the one that is going to impact his, and our, enjoyment of the saga. I'll stand by my statement that his character is based primarily on the mechanical aspects of character creation and without any overarching story is a poor fit for the saga. There are some ways I could see adjusting her to make her fit better. I've suggested them. I think qcipher may have, as well. I know jebrick has hinted that he might have some issues.
The ST has spoken about other players poking other characters. I could use some pokes, I'm sure. See jebrick's last three posts in the preplay discussion thread, starting from the link. I haven't criticized qcipher's character, that I recall. I pointed out some errors and inconsistencies with Adauli's character and offered to help. I've stated my issues with using your talisman in the lab, but that's relatively minor compared to what's going on here. Lastly, I've played with jebrick. He and I have some similar sensibilities on some things.
But at the end of the day, it's not just my opinion. Of course, everyone's opinion matters, but I know from what I've seen posted here that three people involved do have some fairly serious misgivings about the character. I could be wrong, Lamech may want a character that is going to be constantly distracted and rebuffed from working on her chosen path. I have a character in a different game that has been trying to improve her magic theory for over two years, and it's central to her character concept but other stuff constantly gets in the way of it. It's honestly been a lot of fun. I know eventually she'll get there, but I, as a player, am enjoying the fact that she isn't getting what she wants.
But there is no way to represent this in detailed character creation. There is working for pay, but I don't actually need to do that. In fact, I currently have flagrantly wasted vis overspending on the spirit summons and not using for keeping anything from the personal vis source. You are telling me my character should take seasons to benefit her exactly jack squat?
We are not doing extremely complex character generation. Eve isn't starting with enchanted items. Any time she spent making items for her House, teaching or helping out with initiations (BTW, she does have something like +8 in that department, she isn't half bad.) gets subsumed in the many seasons she dedicated to personal advancement either in spells or experience. Do a season of work and get three tracti lent to you. End result is 40 experience. Make an item of quality and I'll lend you these super cool lab texts, plus help you invent both!
Long story short, Eve didn't keep an items or need extra vis beyond what was provided. So mechanically in character creation nothing needs to be represented. But if we do it your way how many seasons of work for no gain would make the character believable? Should Eve spend 12 seasons getting nothing in return? 20?
No that's a great reason. Its a human reason. People do stuff for fun. People do stuff for personal power. Its what all of college is. (Although in college its learning how to rewrite a poem instead of rewrite reality.) People do stuff so they can live longer. I mean, really "Hi! Would you like to go on a wonderful vacation, then get paid 100,000 grand a year forever?" Bloody hell sign me up! Eve is a person. A very talented person. But she is a person. And that is what the Philosophers of Rome offer. Fun, and power. That's what those rites offer.
People are not thematic. People don't chose the talents they are given. People like to have hobbies. Its why doctors learn to fly planes. Its why lawyers make webcomics. People take what they can get, that's why someone works three totally different jobs sometimes. Its why someone goes from philosophy grad school to writing to a think tank to being a programmer. People are not themes. So sorry, but making a person with a theme in mind breaks my suspension of disbelief.
Eve is talented. She wants to change the world. And she wants to go big. She believes she can save everyone. She isn't a warrior although she does have some blasting spells just in case. (And flight, because FLIGHT!) She thinks that she has a better way to go about it than everyone else. And she's ended up in Translyvania because life took her there. (Game conceit.)
Ditto, most of what Eve has done has been abstracted out.
Now, I do need to finish fleshing out my backstory. I have a framework. Its not done, yet. More stories about her life. More experiences. It'll be fun. I'm sure Eve will get drawn into more than enough stories just from her quest to ultimate power, and with generalized problems related to the rest of the party.
You don't get it.
College is about personal power? You and I have a vastly different idea of what college is. Characters are pretty different from real people. They are usually an amalgamation of several people designed to highlight aspects that they have in common, or they are a slice of a person that shows a single aspect. But they strive towards some consistent back story. If you can pull it off, my hat is off to you. I just know you've set a high hurdle to overcome. Note, I say I know. I'm not speculating. I know.
Lamech, you have a Verditius that doesn't make anything or hasn't made anything. You're saying that the creation rules aren't conducive to it, but I don't see that; you make an item (and as a Verditius you do that better than others) and those items then make up for inconsistencies and weaknesses in your character, their flaws. My character Alexei made a powerful talisman before the game started, and it was well worth it.
Your character is consistent on one theme; to grant power for your character. That is...boring. It seems that everything your character does is in pursuit of a powerful goal. That's great...why didn't you take it as a major flaw, like Driven (Apotheosis, to become a god)? And then when you take that flaw, why? Why does she want to be a god? Whim? That is absurd. Sure, if someone said "Hey you? Do you want to be a god?" and just offered it, sure many would jump at it. But to become a god in Ars (and the final result is debatable) requires decades of work, gathering power, gathering worshippers, stabbing other members of a Mystery Cult in the back (that are trying to do the same to you) and fighting off a suspicious Order that might want to stop you, and never mind the other Realms interacting for their reasons. And in the end, the chance is still slim. Does that sound like something to do on a whim?
It sounds like it would need an epic person to do that, and so have equally epic reasons for it. So give us an epic reason! Maybe she saw the Infernal decimate her home and where was God and his Saints then? Maybe she's read of the struggle between the Magical Titans and the Faerie Gods, and has chosen a side. Maybe she's a Seeker and believes that the Founders were all ultimately trying to ascend, but it is she that will succeed. Give us something! Whim? That's insulting, and it's not worthy of a magus. It's not worthy of the stories we're trying to write. It doesn't deliver on the epicness of the goal.
"Why do you want to be a God?" "I dunno, sounds kinda cool." "...?"
That is what I'm hoping to get from you. I'm being harsh here, but there's many pages devoted to try and help you get your character into a good story theme, to become an interesting character in this game, and all you're doing is getting defensive. Use the criticism to your advantage. You need to understand your character as is, has flaws (and not the kinds that give you points back), we're trying to help you get through those.
To cure world hunger, disease, age and death. Optimism! Endless boundless optimism.
Optimism! Eve is sure everything will work out for the best and that everything can be overcome.
Except for that part where she has produced a bunch of other tracti to help people out. And she has readied her familiar to teach other magical creatures powers. And that part where she gave into peer pressure and started into the Verdi cult. And the spell she learned to levitate metal. Oh and the spell to summon spirits to mimic spont magic. And the combat spells she picked up. Eve has done a lot not in pursuit of her goal.
However, the real issue comes down to this: Eve hasn't done anything because the game hasn't started! All we see of her build is the spending on power and personal wealth. (Which is really the same thing.) Character creation is abstract only caring about the end result really.
No she hasn't made anything that ended up with her by the end of character creation. She has made on item for her gauntlet, one lesser item for a Verdi initiation and an invested item for a second initiation. In addition to any items she made in the abstract seasons of experience/spell gain.
More to the point: so what if she didn't? Eve didn't chose her parens.
Lamech, I guess we're wasting our time. In the end you will always come up with a reason that is ok with you, that justifies your character concept to you. Take a look at the amount of pages that have been devoted to trying to get you to improve your character concept. Do you think that these pithy, defensive answers changes anyone's mind? Do you think that we're suddenly going to say "Oh! I get it now!" No, nothing has changed, you just keep digging in your heels. Why would we put these 10-15 pages of comments in? This concept is filled with problems. We are trying to help you. Can you accept that? This isn't a personal attack, though we've had to get a bit more harsh to try and make a point.
This doesn't convince me of anything about your character other than she's a mass of numbers thrown together with a goal of gathering power. Please...take the criticism as help, consider what we're saying as advice. Let us help you be consistent.
I think it is a good question about a major personality flaw of Optimism. How does that jive with a quest for immortality? i mean, why bother with these scripts when it will all work out in the end? right? Do you really need any of that Cult Lore stuff when it will all work out in the end?
It is a flaw and when it is a major personality flaw it controls your life.
She I think we are clashing on fairly fundamental issues. My take is that mechanics are just that: mechanics. The mechanics need to model the fluff. However one set of mechanics can model several flavor of fluff. For example take getting 50xp over five seasons. It could be she went of five adventures. It could be she went on one adventure, found a pile of books and read them. It could be she crafted an item of quality and got a year of library access in exchange and the library happened to be filled with Q9 tracti. It could be she read books for five seasons. Or it could be she studied vis for five seasons. Maybe she fell into Arcadia and was enslaved for several years only getting exposure xp, but due to the time dilation she only spent five seasons on the outside. (Plus anti-aging magic).
In each case since the mechanics represents the end result of the fluff as far as character creation is concerned the mechanics work. Five seasons spent, 50xp gained. Which means that when putting it up in my little seasonal guide it gets written up as five seasons of spell gain or xp gain. Even though in Eve's backstory its totally reasonable to say she spent five years in arcadia or made an item of quality.
Or with low-self esteem. Its a general flaw. NOT a personality flaw. Most people (grogs) have a low-self esteem equivalent. No confidence. Eve doesn't have any special well of confidence out in the field. She's a mystagogue, a writer. Someone who does stuff in low stress situations. Not a soldier, or archeologist.
On the specific personality flaw: I see a whole array of potential flaws. Compassionate "I give people initiations free of charge!" Optimistic "A new breed of gods will totally be friends! Also I'll totally be the one to pull this off when everyone else failed" Proud "I'm a worthwhile god!" and Driven: "Gonna be a god." We could also break up the one major into two minors and that one cult flaw.
How does someone with low self worth think they can become a god? Your character has a deflated opinion of herself. That is the description of the flaw. how does that fit with I will want to be a god? Get beyond the game mechanic of the flaw. This is Neville Longbottom years 1-4.
I would ditch Optimistic and take Driven as the major personality flaw. Everything your character has done is driving to a single goal. It fits much better than me thinking that Luna Lovegood ( sticking with the Harry Potter Theme) is angling to be a god.
Hmm... lets see driven major, optimism minor, warped magic and that one minor story flaw for being in a cult?
What happened to weak spont magic and small frame? And detail the unpleasant side effect from warped magic.
By the cult one, I presume you're talking about Cabal Legacy. That is more appropriate to a character just or a few years out of gauntlet. It represents having been initiated into the Mystery Cult by the parens. It's not impossible, but for a character 30 years PG, it's not really a very expressive story flaw, nor is it one that should provide some advantages . Minor Story flaws have a small benefit that come with them. I can't see a benefit for Eve's parens being in the cult, given how it is so dispersed and each aspirant really maintains their own congregation.
Those would still be there. I just didn't mention them since they would be unchanged. And the unpleasant side effect would be ink crawling over everything. Minor would be just herself, and higher level effects would spread out to her clothing, or even the surroundings. Most notably it makes her really easy to track, and makes her look tattooed with active effects.
Yeah, I'll need to reread the details of that. Is there a minor favours flaw? Because that would be even better.