I think this needs a free Rego requisite, to chuck the spears. The spears target an area, so anyone in the area has a chance of being hit. The recipient becomes the area of effect, the "T"arget is the metal created. This isn't like multiple casting, where each spell can be individually targeted for a recipient, IMO. If it were treated that way one could create spells similar to this (Pila of Fire) with T:Group and individually target the recipients, this becomes a far more effective way of multiple casting in this saga, or any saga, really. Add 2 magnitudes to a spell and target 10 opponents or 5 opponents 2 times, or some combination yielding a total of 10. Yes please, sign me up.
Also, in the same spirit of some authenticity or flair, let's try something more evocative of what the spell really does. I'm offering a suggestion below, but I'm not entirely happy with the name. The description which explains how Eve came across it, though, works with Eve's character.
Tomas's Invisible Pikemen Cr(Re)Te 30
R: Sight D: Mom T: Group
Invented by the reclusive Tomas, Eve found this lab text in the wreckage of his sanctum during her quest for gnostic secret knowledge. It was apparently overlooked or ignored by those who had been there before and looted the sanctum. Primarily useful against an angry mob without any magic resistance, Tomas used this spell to run away when the mobs came looking for him.
The spell creates 10 metal spears and throws them at a a designated general area. The spears fan out and have a chance of hitting anyone in that spot. It's a pretty good chance Dodge EF of X (9 maybe?), and some people may be hit more than once.
Base 5, +3 Sight, +2 Group, free rego requisite to throw the pikes.
Not entirely happy with it, it's trying to do some things that Ars isn't really good at doing...
This is not multicasting, and it is inferior to multicasting in a lot of ways. One it is only for targeting people in a group. Multi-cast spells can hit pick three people out of a crowd. Two, it can't hit someone repeatedly; yes, its subtle but its in the spell. "Different" person. Three pillum's of fire can target one person three times. Again subtle, but I did call out "group", although I suppose I could make it more clear. Four its only rolled once. This is not a benefit, at least with decent levels of mastery. Multiple rolls mean a better chance of getting a higher penetration to actually do something. Five this is ten levels higher which means ten less penetration. Six, its only one spell. While not a lot of defenses work by countering spells, one counter spell stops the whole lot of these.
So no this is not mutli-casting, not by a long shot. Its hitting a group. Its what the group target is for. I see what you mean about the requisite and I can add that if it makes you feel better.
If the form was Corpus, you might have a valid argument about a Group spell affecting multiple people in a group. In the case of this spell is Group of the form of Terram, the spears/pikes/rods/whatever that are created.
You're creating a Group of spears with this spell and trying to affect a group of people. There is no mechanic in Ars that does this. There are of area of effect spells, but they are indiscriminate with respect to whatever is in the area of effect. This spell creates 10 metal spears or pikes, it then chucks them at something or place. They might fan out and hit targets (you can't really target them at all on an individual basis, which we both agree).
One, I disagree with, the Group is the Group of spears created. Not the recipients of the spell.
Two: I know, this spell is doing what, trying to hit 10 people? What if there are more? Less?
Three: Yes, I'm aware of this. Why can't this spell hit one person with all 10 spears? There's nothing in the rules to prevent it, in fact, that is easier to see, for me, than 10 spears hitting an area. Since it's technically a targeted spell, and can be resisted.
Four: What's rolled once? The casting sure, but again, there's no mechanic to determine who gets damaged by this barrage of spikes. Maybe in Lords of Men, but I'm not 100% familiar with that book. If 10 people are in a group, and each person gets hit once, there are 10 rolls for damage, and 10 rolls for soak, so no, it's not just 1 roll.
Five: Penetration only matters when facing beings with Magic Resistance. This spell is pretty devastating against a mundane mob, which is why I thought Eve had it. If Eve is concerned about going up against beings or creatures with MR, she really needs a lower level spell with more penetration than this.
Six: I don't understand this point you are trying to make.
I didn't say this was multiple casting, I said that it was better than multiple casting. If you can create 10 items (this is the Group target at work), and then target (small "t" target) each of those individuals, inflicing +10 damage. Apply the same method to Wielding the Invisible Sling, and make it T:Group, it's 20th level, inflicts +10 damage, and by your reasoning, as I understand it, affects 10 people/creatures/ small "t" targets. In order to multiple cast such a spell to the same degree it needs to be mastered to an ability score of 9, which is 225/112.5 xp.
Hmmm. This one is tricky. The target is a group ( 10 individuals) but you are right in that the Creo would create the spears but not give them force. If it were non damaging he could create a wall or iron chains but those would need to last longer.
ties that bind
Base 5 Sight +2 Group +2 Diameter +1 + 1 complexity.
Creates iron chains which binds the targets capturing arms and legs.
Sight and group are going to do you in when working with metal. THat makes it mag 6 without adding anything else. If you dropped them on the target then it effects the area but the group may not be big enough.
If it is a duck and cover spell for Eve to run away just do a bigger pit of gapping earth and get everyone. Or earthen wave. Those are great but again, target an area. But you would be safe.
So I think the flaw set up I will use is:
Weak Spontaneous Magic, Driven (acquire godhood, major), Small Frame, Optimism (minor), Warped magic, Incompatible Arts (Perdo Mentum/Terram)
Also views on the various houses:
Mystery Cults: Pretty cool, Eve is big on the mysteries. Her Philo of Rome is better though. They certainly don't have the best way to anything good. Still when Eve ascends she is sure they will see the Truth, mostly. Maybe they can integrate their mysteries.
Verdi: The Verdi are particularly frustrating with their mystery path that doesn't actually seem to lead to any sort of immortality. If you delve into the mysteries of the world, shouldn't you try and NOT die? Buts a damper on most everything. Plus she is sort of stuck with them. Their whole idea on "masterpieces" sort of bugs her. Her idea of a masterpiece is functional. Resource efficient. She doesn't really want to ditch them and take their mysteries. They wouldn't like that.
Boni: These guys are cool. They make progress! Pity she can't join...
Tremere: Woo! Pragmatism. Trying to make the world better. Eve can get behind that. I mean, godhood only works if we all help each other. Otherwise we'll end up like all the other screw ups. Huzzah for communal effort! Now if only they weren't so bad at it...
The other two TL's: I guess they perform essential functions to keep the Order running... Eve is sure glad she didn't get saddled with those tasks. I mean sure, most growth ends up bumping into limits that need overcoming, but random conflicts don't lead to growth.
Tytalus: Growth through conflict? I get my growth through wine, women, men and song. Also study, and exercise. Its much nicer. And more effective.
Ex Misc: Don't really want to join all the Hedgie rejects. Okay they have some cool tricks, but shouldn't they be trying to integrate them into the Order?
Jerbiton: Beauty is nice. Okay there are some slight religious differences, and they are a bit snobbish.
Flambeau: Cooperation! Not fighting! Fighting gets people killed. You want to avoid it, not seek it!
Eve's theology has been changed. I've removed the elements making it Divine.
The world was created by the impure demiurge, not really evil, but certainly not anything worthy of neither honor nor worship. Ennoia would be source of Light and goodness and all that. The other realms are ultimately distortions of that.
The world is filled with evil and imperfections being made by the demiurge. One of the things you can do to rectify this is form good out of it anyway. The demiurge is of course, imperfect and ultimately an emanation of Ennoia, so its more than possible to find good in the world.
2a) This means you should enjoy life. Things that the corrupt Church would call debauchery, gluttony and lust. Still don't over indulge. Destroying your body and succumbing to the temptations of alcoholism or overeating is another failure. Feast, but don't eat yourself to death. Feel the ecstasy provided by exercise. But also do good deeds. And don't hurt other people in your indulgence. Be good to yourself and your neighbor. We all need to work together to reach enlightenment.
The secret knowledge of the Gnostic cult will help you reach "heaven" after death, but so will good deeds and more general enlightenment. And of course, the desired "heaven" is more of a purification and expansion of your soul and nothing like what the corrupt Church preaches. Their heaven is simply a trick to lure souls away from enlightenment.
One of the great expansions of the soul is what Eve calls Apotheosis. It isn't the end of the road, but even seeing the next step requires even more enlightenment than one could hope to achieve on the mortal coil.
This part is more or less purely linguistic and leads to a lot of confusion. Ennoia is not a god. It would be insulting to compare her to a god. Ennonia doesn't really need worship either. You can if you want, it won't harm anything. Instead worship the best parts of each other.
The Divine, is simply a god that has gotten a lot of power recently, and is outright hostile to other powers. When the whole known world worships you that tends to happen.
As I mentioned earlier this loses the Divine elements. The Divine is hard to wrap your head around. Its still a reasonably virtuous group.
Basically these restrictions were all put in because that is the way the spell was created. You are trying to argue that my spell is a different spell and that different spell is overpowered. Sorry that's a strawman.
The casting is rolled once with this. More rolls means higher max penetration. More chance of an explosion.
You're saying this use of group is unbalanced because it makes multi-cast suck. Multi-casting isn't the best way to get everything done. Just like a group target isn't the best way to get a lot of gold. Or creo ig isn't the best way to make a pretty picture. So yeah, one advantage that multi-cast has over this is an extra ten penetration.
Its one single spell. If someone fast casts a defense to this they need to do it once. If someone fast casts a defense to multi-cast spell they also need multi-cast or they need to make several fast casting rolls. Or if they have a waiting spell or similar to stop this.
And I'm saying there are a ton of situations where its worse.
Finally, I don't think that spell mastery is a good yardstick for "balanced" especially after the huge nerf it took. Spell mastery is good in some situations, really good, but its not some general thing that is always or even often the best solution.
You still haven't described the mechanic that allows this to target multiple people.
You're really confused on what I'm saying. The Target of the spell is a Group of Terram. There is no mechanic that allows you to throw 10 items and hit individual people. You could throw all 10 items at the same person. You can affect everything in an area with Area of Effect spells. This is doing something altogether different. Find a canonical spell that does something close to what you're trying to do. I'm not familiar with one.
There are better area of effect spells within your casting capabilities. This one is flawed.
For the record, you've described one circumstance where this is worse than multiple casting, that really doesn't constitute a ton.
Control the Dead Turb (Hermetic Projects 116) is similar. It creates a group, and if we note how combat rules work, wounds are inflicted as evenly as possible across the group. So if the dead Turb group of 5 people attacks 5 people they would hit each person once. You'll also note that they very specifically called out not acting as a "trained group", which would imply is an untrained group. On a side note they cannot be given different orders, so no attacking people on different sides of the room.
Similar for this spell. The metal rods are flung at a target of group. The main difference is instead of hitting people with flesh and bone, I'm using metal.
Any circumstance where you want to focus on one person? Any circumstance where you want to focus on people on different sides of the room? Any circumstance where you want penetration? etc.
That's an apples and oranges comparison. And even then it says explicitly that they can't fight as a trained group. So the individuals would attack whomever is closest. A trained group could defend against them, though.
Try again. A direct damage spell that damages individuals in a group when the targeting spell is comprised of 10 independent elements, such as yours.
No. Its a near exact comparison. Its controlling matter to deal damage indirectly.
Trained group. It refers to them as a group. Which leaves untrained group. Even if it doesn't the definition of an untrained group is people on the same side of comparable ability, which these would be. Untrained groups work in the same manner when it comes to determining who gets hit. Scatter damage among the opposing group.
Ahah ! Magi of Hermes, p.111, Stockade of Fire. Creo Ignem, Group target, creates six walls of fire that can be placed individually within the spell range and, if placed across someone's location, using the rules for aimed spells, will cause damage to that person.
I think the need for aiming derives from the fact its a spell to create walls. For example, if you wanted to catch someone with a wall of thorns spell you would need to aim. Otherwise that sets precedent for what I want. The individuals created by the spell being independent.
Halancar, I'll grant you it canonical. I've noticed that there are problems with several spells from Magi of Hermes. At least the author considered the walls needed to be aimed. -1 per wall after the first, I guess? In the case of Rommy's Gone, the last spear has a -9 to hit.
Lamech, Wall of Thorns says absolutely nothing about aiming it to put it at the desired location, nor do any of the wall spells with T:Ind
If you want to drop wall of thorns directly on top of someone? Yeah, you need to aim it. That would trap a target with magic resistance. Similarly to how pit of gaping earth needs to be aimed to get someone to drop into it. And precise placement always requires finesse.
And the -1 per wall after the first is pure fantasy on your part.