Eve ex Verditius

You realize that such a path within the Transylvanian Tribunal will be extremely risky, don't you? Especially in an oppida where the membership is supposed to have some idea of what the other members are doing.

As far as the 75 bps, my stance on it would be no.

Why would such a path be risky? Mystery Cults aren't illegal. Nor is trying to gain power. Indeed trying to take a magi's magical power is illegal. Tremere might try to convict on bogus charges, but assuming the Quaesitor isn't corrupt they would just slap it down. They might try a wizard's war, but they could do that to anyone anywhere. They could try a number of illegal acts, but again they can do that anywhere.

Which definition of apotheosis are you using? I was taking that for approaching the Divine. That would be a big no no. You'd create more trouble for the Tremere than it's worth.

Alright, here's where understanding the metastory fits for what you want to do. Players don't necessarily need to understand it, but you're doing some pretty meta character manipulation, and it will probably get you slapped down. The metastory is thus. House Guernicus has a Plan to take over the Order. Through some hubris on the part of the Chief Hoplite, Valerian of Guernics, of the Normandy Tribunal due to having way too much power with the Art of Terram, he decided to act and assassinated a (former) Tremere who was living as a Jerbiton, the magus responsible for founding Mons Electi when he found out who he was. When that happened it was revealed to the players and the characters that Guernicus has hit squads and will use them, that they have a plan to take over the Order.

I am not sure if jebrick plans to use the idea I had for the Exemplars of the Arts, but basically I had 15 magi throughout the order who had insane arts scores (70-90) received through some means as yet unexplained. Valerian was/is the examplar of Terram, I'm unsure if he is still alive, but his terram score was 85, which meant he had a massive soak against metal weapons, and his Herbam is pretty good, too, because he didn't have to study Terram much at all. But that's the brief over view.

So, would House Tremere allow a corrupt Quaesitor who exists within their Tribunal prosecute you? You bet. Would they try and engineer something against you if you were a problem? You bet.

No, the Ascendency to the Hall of Heroes virtue and spells.

Or they try and bribe a non-corrupt Quaesitor and it immediately blows up in their face. Plus why would they even care? "Oh noes she's in a mystery cult doing mysterious things!" Of course I'm in a mystery cult, its in my damn name! They don't have the Lore to understand the scripts, and the ascendency spells won't be made public. Barring massive scrying they won't find out until I'm a Daimon. (Which, if NPC's who have attempted this before are any indication, probably won't happen.)

This is not a Tribunal to be difficult or a wildcat. The Tremere believe that magi who look out just for themselves are bad for the Order as a whole. You are entering a Tribunal where everyone is expected to work towards the greater good. You are also in a Tribunal where people make it their business to know what your business is. This is one of those Tribunals where the Guernicus have only the power that the Tremere let them have.

And she will be a wonderful little worker bee, who will perform a few mystery rites. If that wasn't what was expected you probably shouldn't have ordered a Verdi.

Anyway, what's a reasonable amount of Cult Lore? The philosophers seem to get most of it from books/adventure, and seem apparently highish lore scores are common. Core would imply the maximum ability is 9 or 11 if you have an affinity. Thoughts jebrick?

For making your own or learning from an existing cult?

Learning from an existing one. The Philosophers of Rome. Its in the back of the mysteries book.

I think it's reasonable to ask yourself, if you're running a secretive Mystery Cult (and this one is one of the more secret of the mystery cults), would you let brand new initiates access to the library to the point that they could learn the lore of the cult to a score of 9 or 11? Keep in mind how vast such a library really needs to be to get to that score. No one's writing a summa at that level (9 or 11), for sure. Probably the highest summa is a L4, possibly a L5. An L6 summa is really unlikely, but we'll go with the best case scenario, Q10 is probably generous, but we'll go with that, too. So that means you have to get from L6 to L9. That's 120 experience points for the average person without the affinity, meaning that there would have to be 12 Q10 Tractatus available. Q10 is probably a fairly generous quality level, too, given that the mystagogues will be more likely to have a high presence than a high communication. But we'll leave it at Q10. So there are 13 books there, but I don't think they would be available to be used until such point as the initiate begins initiating others into the cult.

I'll also point out that this particular path requires followers, the more you can get, the better. There's not much use in becoming a "god" if you can't come back from it, and be called by your followers.

You mean Q7 tracti? Because Eve has book learner. Or for that matter quests to go out and find such lore also can produce experience. And really you mean Q6 since correspondences can add another xp point. And actually the way affinity works which Eve haves she really gets 16 xp from that combo and 14 from a Q5, so really she doesn't even need a Q6 all the time.

And of course, as soon as Eve gets a decent score she can start initiating people into other areas, so that's not really a problem.

Oh and even a little more of that can be shaved off since I'm not getting the xp I "should" be for cult quests or initiations.

No, don't take it as if your character is involved. Think about what is reasonable for the mystery cult to have, for it to be like. Ars isn't a game about how to do X, it's a game about why X is being done. It's simple to build a character that can be frighteningly good about initiations, but that's not the point Think about what's necessary based on the overall framework of the cult. The Philosopher's of Rome is also created like a standard pyramid scheme; not everyone can ascend to the Hall of Heroes. You have to have worshipers and followers.

And I'm not following how you get to 16 xp from the combo, nor do I know what combo to which you are referring.

Q6 tractus+book learner equals 9 xp. Affinity, sends that up to 14.
A correspondence adds 1 xp. Affinity sends that up to 2 xp. 16 xp for a whole season worth of study.

And I for one think its perfectly reasonable for a cult that tries to go out and find texts to have a few dozen texts. And its not a highly organized cult. There is no top guy deciding who accesses the works. No one is going to say to Eve "sorry you can't be a mystogogue yet." She can start initiating people as soon as she has a script.

The question is not whether the cult has the texts, but whether a low level initiate can gain access to them. It is, after all, a Mystery Cult, keeping its lore secret is part of its core identity...

If you want all that (and I think jebrick will probably enforce fractional experience points to avoid that rounding accumulation, since that's effectively what MetaCreator does, and what I did in Bibracte) you get to 13.5+1.5=15. In any event, if you want all that, you have to wait until play begins for the book learner virtue to kick in. Otherwise, assume a season provides a SQ of 10, and your affinity raises it up to 15, and you're still at the same place...

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a highly organized cult to have texts. For one, the Philosophers of Rome, by your own admission is not that kind of highly organized cult with a top guy deciding things. It's a collection of congregations, each one lead by someone who wants to ascend to the Hall of Heroes. He might have 3 or 4 books, but he isn't going to have a dozen. And the ones that get traded around aren't going to come easily. Given the structure, it's unlikely that someone is going to let you initiate a whole bunch of people, because it is going to interfere with their "afterlife" for lack of a better word. So, in short, you need to find someone who will initiate you and is willing to let you start your own congregation. After that, have at it. And what do you think his price will be?
And then there is the whole issue of how the cult is really antithetical to the Tremere. Most Mystery Cults are, because of keeping secret the knowledge they have, but this cult's behavior isn't really consistent with living in a Tremere dominated Tribunal. But you could pursue the Ascetic paths, which wouldn't put you on the radar of the Tremere. You could try and modify the Philosophers' of Rome scripts and path so that it focuses less on the "pursuit of earthly pleasures and sins of the flesh."

Other members of the cult want books just as badly as Eve. She can swap books for books.

I'd say that the books that do exist get potential initiates up the a Philosophers of Rome Lore score of 6, since that is what is necessary for initiation into the cult. After that, the rest is up to the initiate as far as I can see.

Look we aren't doing extremely complex character generation. Hence we generally hand wave all this stuff and say the max for an ability is 9. We give out a set rate of xp a season. No exposure or adventure experience, or bonuses from virtues. If we want to do a sanity check? The cult has books. People can get up to a reasonable level, 6 is common. Which means people who try hard can probably get more. It gets pushed farther by adventure, correspondences and such. Even with just 6 from books. 105 xp right there. 120 seasons of correspondences puts Eve at another 240. (345 total) I think it would be fairly plausible for Eve to have 10 or 11 in the cult lore.

We aren't doing extremely complex character generation. We shouldn't try. We especially shouldn't do some weird combination which we combine the aspects of both forms of character creation chosen in the way to best screw the player.

I wasn't the one who brought up complex character generation. You've brought it up several times. Again, because jebrick uses MC, the correspondence is probably really with 180 xp, not 240. But 120 seasons, is your entire post gauntlet career, which suggests you started with a Lore Ability score of 6, which suggests that you probably should have a cabal legacy flaw.

I'd just get the Lore to six, get initiated, spend some more experience points in the lore get it up to 8 or 9, and then start the saga with some books in your bps, and be looking to form your own congregation in the Tribunal. Try and recruit PCs, whether magi or not (I'd exclude your companion and any grogs you intend to run for the obvious conflict of interest).

I'm not trying to screw you over. But you're not picking a cult that will be a good fit in a Tremere controlled Tribunal, either. So, that choice suggests you do want to focus on that difficulty, whether it is made explicitly or not. I would just be prepared for it to all turn south on you when the Tremere/Tribunal officers come knocking. Depending on whether jebrick's vision of her is close to my vision of her, I could see a certain Merceris Maga being very interested in the cult...

I'll probably end it at 9 or 10 and have some books. My companion can't be initiated because well... Fae. Any grogs... not sure what I would give them that would help. And they would be last in line for initiations regardless. Plus they can't actually ascend and initiating non-Gifted would be the antithesis of the cult.

It is not the antithesis of the cult.

You need worshippers, both magical and mundane to bring you back.