Excellent Items of Quality & Amethysts

You can only make one per season, regardless of shenanigans. You could arguably take time off, but that is a ST call. Unfortunately the rules from the various books rarely mesh well.

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Why would it be an ST call for the time off, when the rules explicitly cite that the quality of your lab total doesn't impair making an item of quality? All time off does is lower the quality of your lab total. Now, the Multiple Lab Activities rules I was citing seems less clear-cut, so I'm not outright disagreeing with you there.

Well, serf's parma, a "third" is the smallest unit of season, under those rules, again, serf's parma. So maybe three, but no more. And I wouldn't allow that, much as I might want to do so myself, because Mysteries are very picky, filled with little things that allow you to "bend" the Hermetic magic rules. Like the many Verditius Mysteries affected by Hubris, for example. There is nothing in the base book about that, but it certainly applies. I would say the same about the "Season" mentioned under Items of Quality. You might be allowed an interruption, but that's the only Magical activity you did that Season. Definitely worth a Breakthrough, mind. Right up there with Opening an Item of Quality the Season you made it.

Well, at least said Verditius only has to work one hour per day and can take up to 20 days off in a single season while making an Item of Quality; so he'll at least get to be relaxed while crafting.

Twenty days off? Yes. One hour a day? I would say no. Creating a Platonic Ideal is not a casual affair. You are doing what would take Magic a level 50 Creo Terram ritual and doing it with a single pawn of Vis. Just because you make it look easy, doesn't mean it is!

Just like losing a day of work, all that happens is a penalty to your Lab Total, and the Item of Quality is made successfully without regard for what the Lab Total might be.

That cuts both ways. There is no lab total, so you have no reason to object if the ST says you didn't put in enough work for it count as a "Season" as far as the Mystery is concerned. "he spends a season in his lab". That's what the Mystery requires, by Canon. It looks to my like you are trying to commingle "Amount of Season needed to get a particular Lab total" with "Season". This seems unwise, and likely to lead to a mugging by the ST. Your mileage may vary, but I don't think the rules, spirit of, and formal, support you at all.

Cuts both ways? How does "regardless of what his Lab Total might be" lead to there being a minimum lab total? Working 1 hour a day over the course of a season still explicitly generates a Lab Total; you can make magic items, invent spells, extract vis, etc. Tell me where the rules say that "a season in the lab" can mean something intrinsically different from "a season in the lab."

If an ST says that taking half days throughout the season isn't enough to make an Item of Quality, then they are explicitly changing the rules to the detriment of the player. That is different from adjudicating areas where the rules are vague and undefined, such as my earlier question regarding Multiple Lab Activities & Items of Quality.

There is NO lab total. The activity requires a Season. You are trying to use the Lab total rules to modify something that has NO lab total. "he spends a season in his lab". That is a direct quote from the section on Items Of Quality. See any mention of a lab total? The person who would be "changing the rules" is you. Bait and switch.

Yes, I do see mention of a Lab Total.

The only thing changed by spending less than 10 hours per day in the lab is that your Lab Total is smaller & you make the Item of Quality whether your Lab Total is 5 or 50. The rules for preparing an item for enchantment don't mention your Lab Total, nor do numerous other seasonal lab activities. If it (Item of Quality rules) didn't go out of its way to cite the presence of a Lab Total, then I wouldn't be defending this position.

Looking at it, I think the whole point of the 1 IoQ/season is to prevent them from being insanely common. At the same time, having to spend a whole season producing an item that gives you +1 or +2 to a few die rolls might be a little much. Personally, if I did a HR, I'd probably either : a) Allow something like a maximum number of IoQs = (Magic Theory/3ish) with a total bonuses of no more than their Philosophiae score split between them at a pawn of vis per item, or b) Allow specific activities that can be done in conjunction with enchanting a single IoQ, (such as Teaching an apprentice, instead of just providing Exposure); anything requiring a Lab Total would be a no-go, though, as would things like opening an item or studying from vis.

In both cases, you're never getting more than your maximum item bonus/season in IoQs and you're not getting extra seasons of lab work either.

It'd be one HR or the other for the saga, not a player choice every season, though.

The mention of the Lab total is to say it is unimportant. Perhaps to correct previous abuses by people doing things like opening items for enchantment in a "Season" that was an hour a day? Not buying it. There is NO lab total. The "mention" the way you read it, would include a lab total of zero, yes? So why would you spend even an hour a day on making it? Once you've learned the Mystery, you get a free Item of Quality every season. Yeah......

Thank you Jason72. I wouldn't house rule it, because we have canon rules to deal with this. A breakthrough to make 3 a season, or to open it up for enchantment while making it makes perfect sense, and would be a good project for a young Verditius. Be a good way to win the contest as a Journeyman if you can pull it off. I would think 5 to ten breakthrough points would be right. You aren't breaking or even bending any limits of Magic..... In canon, I this this hasn't happened yet, because it is, as you say, a small bonus, and Verditius move on to bigger projects. And I think NPCs are a lot less worried about Warping points then PCs, who are "playing the rules" to maximize their age.

If you're making a +1 or +2 IoQ, you're either badly uncreative or your Philosophiae sucks. Both should be punished.

If you only get to bring one latent quality to the surface and the only applicable bonus for what you need is +2, you're not really left with much choice, are you? Not every ST errs on the side of the of most liberal interpretation of the rules possible.

Your assumption must be incorrect according to effects written in the line. Those listed values are not built-in limits and can be improved upon. Just look at the naranj that allows these bonuses to be increased. Based on the guideline descriptions, a very difficult alchemical process can do the same. There are a couple other effects I can think of that may as well. But the naranj is enough; it clearly shows the listed bonuses are not maxima.

No. In response to essentially the same question a while ago:

Here is the full post:


If you spend a season in the lab, you generate a Lab Total. If it's attempting to make a 'correction', then the rest of the book would acknowledge this in some form elsewhere. But it doesn't.

Like magic resistance, there's a difference between 0 and none.

For me as a storyteller, I would 1) look to the item being made and the craft making it. If it would require a season in a workshop then no, you can't take time off.
2)ask what else would be done with the time. Adventure? Sure, we can throw in a short adventure for no penalty. Read a book? Not for study, you are spending the season in the lab. Certainly I would allow training but not teaching of an apprentice... which is at least better than exposure...

The converse is written in ArM5 and is true: if it there is a Lab Total, it takes a season. The following sentence, the one about not having a Lab Total meaning you're don't need to work in the lab, came up before and has been submitted to be removed in an upcoming errata update. Without that, there is nothing saying a season in the lab must generate a Lab Total.