exploiting the childrens crusade

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Mark and Oli, (Gribble & Ghidorah) you're playing this adventure, please read no further!

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Apologies for the wordy post! I'm Gm'ing a game where one of the other players has played for many years and knows the game in far more detail than I ever will. There are going to be consequences to what's hapening, and I'm looking for advice on keeping them realistic!

Brief background to the question:

Our covenant fell out with the local lord, he attacked us, and we slaughtered his entire army.

Despite our efforts to keep it quiet, word did get out, and we got a visit from a representative of the king. Who turned up to arrest the 3 magus.

The king knew enough about the OoH to be able to quote several parts of the code to us. We were offered a deal, do a job for the King William (the conqueror), or be sentenced to death for our crimes.

Recently the pope had made a speech calling for (the 1st) crusade to be sent to the holy lands. Children across europe have begun to talk of a childrens crusade (based loosely on the real thing), and in their masses have left their homes in large groups heading off to the holy lands. Among them was one of the kings younger sons.

This was 3 months ago, our job was to find him, and persuade him to return home.

However, all was not as it seemed, the supposed inspirational leader of the childrens crusade (known as The Piper) was, as the name suggests a pied piper type figure, with an enchanted flute designed to charm the kids.

3000 children left the UK on a fleet of ships, and were sold into slavery.

However, a Sicillian mage has an agreement with the slaver that he gets first pick of the kids, he briefly inspects each kid, and buys the gifted ones, which he takes back to his covenant.

The young prince was one of these kids.

The Sicillian covenant have been doing this for a while, and have far more gifted kids than they could ever take as apprentices. They are heavily into research, and run labs with large numbers of lab assistants, which is where they use these kids, to massively boost their lab totals.

They wipe the kids memories, and in the process stunt their gift, ensuring that the kids can never be taken as apprentices by other magi.

The Sicillian covenant are very highly valued in their own tribunal as great researchers, and recently made a large breakthrough which they are negotiating the sharing of within the Rome tribunal. As such, they have a lot of friends.

Our magus have just arrived outside the covenant, knowing that the prince is inside with 11 other gifted kids who were taken with him. (2 of which are children of one of our magus).

(sorry for the long preamble!)

My questions are about the consequences:

  1. Have they broken the code by buying gifted kids from a slaver, and possibly being in cahoots with the Piper?

  2. Have they breached the code by stunting the kids gift?

  3. If we confront another covenant and demand the kings son back.. are we breaching the code by blatantly interfering in the affairs of mundanes?

  4. If we try to steal the prince back, are we (by taking a gifted lab assistant) depriving another magus of his magics? (sorry not got the exact wording of the code here)

  5. If we therefore decide there's nothing we can do, and the king sentences us to death, and by evading that punishment we bring the kings wrath upon the order.. are we then breaching the code?

  6. Does the fact that 2 of the gifted kids were born to one of our magus make a difference? They were unclaimed by our own covenant at this time

  7. What are the implications of the fact that this is all taking place in another tribunals area? If we breach the code, will we be expected to turn up to their grand tribunal to answer charges? or would they be presented at the next stonehenge tribunal? What if we, or they fail to attend?

  8. If they refuse to hand the prince over, and we fail to steal him back. We can point out to them that their actions are likely to result in the king sending an army against the Sicillian covenant. However that won't happen unless we tell this king where the prince is. In those circumstances, have we breached the code .. by bringing a matter to the attention of the king that will bring down the wrath of an entire country upon a covenant, and potentially against the order in general?

Thanks in advance!

2

Not really, but kidnapping a king's son could be considered a breach... (likely to have a different ruling in the 2 tribunals in question, which might lead to it being discussed in the next grand tribunal)

Nope, they are not members of the order...

Offcourse not, the other covenant isn't mundanes...:wink:

Nope - holding a gifted person for a simple lab assistant is frowned upon in any event. Had they actually taken the person as an apprentice, the matter would be a different one... (in which case you really should have gotten hold of a bonisagus to do the apprentice grabbing)

Questionable... You're likely to see a fine (payable to whomever else gets to feel the king's wrath)

Nope

This is part of the fun, the same case might be tried in several tribunals... In most cases the long arm of the code only reaches to the tribunal borders, and only if someone powerful got really pissed would it go to the grand tribunal... And if that happens, you'd probably hear about it after you'd been tried...

In truth, they breached the code by kidnapping the prince. But having powerful friends and such, you might be the ones getting the punishment... (law is fun that way).
Offcourse, even a king has trouble moving an army half a continent away, and any reasonably skilled diplomat should be able to convince the king that only the evil sillicians are responsible (and maybe this is a sign from God that he should be going on a crusade?)

3

Well, they did NOT steal the kid away: it seems that the slaver offered passage and the child accepted it. He just happened to have the Gift and be the son of a king.

If the king demands its return they would be wise to grant his wishes. He can refuse, though, and you can do nothing about it. In this case YOU did not break the code, nor will you in any of the adforementioned cases (unless you steal the kid, that is: trhis can lead even to wizards war and is certain to spawn a powerful enemy for you).

You could argue that you can trial them for endangering their sodales (that is, you) since you will be hung if they do not hand the children back. Of course they can demand a payment suitable for this return and your reward (your life, so the favor asked can be extremely high) to hand back the child since it is their property after all, much like grogs are under hermetic law.

They can also laugh in your face and see you struggle to overocme the king's wrath. For what you saidf they are likely to come up with a fine only if they do that (they are powerful)

So you have a case where you have to negotriate with the other covenant. You are likely to have an other adventure in your hands just for "paying" for the child's return. Nice :smiley: The other covenant will keep the benefits of it, be them political or material. If you think this is rough, the king might reward the players with a few books, money or land when they return the kid.

Xavi

4

Okay..my Two Pawns worth...

No. TheOrder allows for almost any manner of aquisition...

Technically: No. If I were the Q in charge of this though, I would do my best to have them marched...These apprentices are the future of the Order...Depriving them of Magical Power is NOT a requirement of their training. Keeping them for the simple purpose of 'Lab boosting' is Illegal. On page 54 of True Lineages... "...

.
This implies that the Maga in question IS responsible for the well being of her apprentice. Harming the apprentice obviously goes against this.

You could be..for involving yourself in the affairs of a King. You also could be in trouble for acting as a court wizard...

Its funny (after writing the above), but Yes. The apprentice IS his property. Taking the apprentice is depriving of magical power. The only ones exempt from this are the Bonisagus. My suggestion would be to get yourself a dozen Bonisagus and have them remove the apprentices...Make sure they aren't the friends of the Covenant in question...Don't ask me where you would get all those Bonisagus...
:wink:

Yes... "wrath upon the Order" answers that.

None at all.

Grand Tribunal. If you don't attend? You probably are found guilty, and have to pay up before the next Tribunal (or other date they set).
If they don't show...No charges I would say.

They have the Prince. To continue to hold him after the king requests him back, would be a matter of violating the code. You telling him? Why should you? Have one of your Grogs or Companions tell him...
You also could call in the local Q for this one. Cut to the chase and by-pass the problems..of course you may not want the Q to know your involvement... :blush:

5

Ah The Children Crusade. It played quite an important part in our saga as well. I have little to add - on all points beside a few exceptions I agree with Urien on his points.

1. I agree that getting their apprentices from anyone, even a slaver, is not against the Code. But at the same time the paragraph on not interfering with the mundanes is quite a rubber legislation. And as well as slaving is not a problem in itself the suspected outcry from mundanes across Europa were they to learn the involvement of magicians might very well endager the Order and thus be punishable. In the end this depends on who will judge who.

2. I agree with the main point of both yes and now - but I'd also add more emphasis to the requirement of teaching your apprentices, even if this might only be a low crime.

7. There is a bit of confusion here. There is only one Grand Tribunal - the rest are regional or simply just called Tribunal. As a sidenote, because this case involves a issue of establishing what Tribunal should do the case or parts of it, because it involves kingship and because it involves the migration of thousands of childen - it might in the end be the material for the Grand Tribunal. Since the Grand Tribunal doesnt convene as often it might be solved by the Council of the Quesitors - or at least see their involvement in it.

Basically this case seems like a lot of breachings going around and most parties seems in trouble with the Code. Besides the questions you ask, there is also the issue of what made them fall out with the local lord in the first place and whether they also breached the Code at that point??

As a sidenote there's so many interesting themes to explore with the Children's Crusade and the story of the rat catcher of Hammeln/Pied Piper. Punishment/retribution, unwanted/wanted, blessed/cursed rigtheous/fallen and on and on. I focused on the children at one hand being missed but on the other hand the relief of parents with too many mouths too feed. And often both in unison. As a theme I used rats for intros and exits, starting the session with a description of a rat in the streets of Cologne/Köln and ending it with a rat jumping on the last ship setting sail from Genoa. As an oddity we played children, so the whole ordeal was seen from a child eyes and encouragement found in the whispering of 'All Children to Jerusalem' or on how the walls of Jerusalem would topple to the stare of a thousand children's eyes. It was a sad story, but one of them live to tell the tale and he grew up to become one of the PC magi.

EDIT: I forgot this usefull link on the Rat Catcher including an 'archeology' of the myth and old latin medieval sources on it http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/312013

6

I'll just add that it sounds like a fantastic story to play. It makes me eager to finish my present game and start a new game troupe style.

7

Yes, it's a nice story indeed.

There appears to be, however, one very easy way out of it for your player characters, which you might want to seal off.

The PC magi, with the knowledge they have at the start of the adventure, can correctly conclude that:
(1) William the Bastard knows of the Order, and knows that some member of the Order now has his son.
(2) So there is imminent danger of the Order getting into a serious conflict with a powerful mundane force.
(3) So they are nearly obliged to inform the responsibles within the Order immediately, or risk being charged with 'bringing ruin upon sodales'.
(4) So they just inform the Quaesitores in Magvillus, who are closer to Sicily, more powerful, and in charge of adjudicating the Sicilian covenant's behaviour anyway.
(5) So the Quaesitores will contact the Sicilian covenant directly, demand without too much ado the king's son, and have him restored through the PC magi to his father - after thoroughly destroying the boy's Gift and blaming the Sicilians for it if somebody should ask.

Kind regards,

Berengar

8

... :open_mouth:

Uh, yeah- funny how it does tend to do that when you slaughter an entire army. Of a King. :unamused:

First off, let me emphasize a point that was mentioned in passing above- The Code is a genuine swiss cheese of loopholes and interpretations. There is never, never, NEVER (well, almost) a clear cut "yes or no" answer. There is always some mitigating factor, some wiggleroom, some escape, something in one part of the code that contradicts another, or in the wording that just doesn't seem to perfectly fit.

Add that to the human factor, that judging and voting and grudges and favors and politics enter into it, and who knows what the verdict will be!

Now, that said... I'd think the Quasitores would first be interested in 3 magi who slaughtered William the Conqueror's entire army! That little detail seems to have been glossed over... :wink:

But, to address the questions you posed, and remembering the above caveat...

1. Have they broken the code by buying gifted kids from a slaver, and possibly being in cahoots with the Piper?

Buying the kids? No. Unless Slavery is illegal (and therefore they are breaking the law, and thereby endangering the Order.)

Conspiring with or aiding the Piper? Quite possibly! I'd say that kidnapping on that scale goes far to "interfering in the affairs of Mundanes." But I think you'd have to show that the Sicilian's magic made the difference, that the crime is based in magic, as opposed to mundane methods.

2. Have they breached the code by stunting the kids gift?

One could argue that, again with so large a scale, they have "deprived magi of magic" by wholesale and wanton destruction of so many potential apprentices. Sort of a "class action" suit. Tough to prove, might be tougher to sell. (Until they are officially an apprentice (and even then!), a Gifted Child is just a commodity, like firewood or eggs, and there is no specific prohibition against wasting such, or even "cornering the market". I'd think a determined Quasitor would have to find a back-door to make this case.)

3. If we confront another covenant and demand the kings son back.. are we breaching the code by blatantly interfering in the affairs of mundanes?

??? - how? Not by demanding the kids. But by acting as the agents of a political power, you are sending up a flare to alert every Quasitor to dig into why you are doing this. (see comments re "slaughtered his entire army", above.)

4. If we try to steal the prince back, are we (by taking a gifted lab assistant) depriving another magus of his magics?

Technically, yes. But if they are just being used for slave labor, and not "officially" claimed as apprentices (or not being properly trained as such!), you could claim them as apprentices (with or without the Bonisagus ploy.) Even if they don't (any more?) have a proper "Gift", you could claim them with the excuse that you think they can be restored.

The key is to make this covenant's practices public and unpopular without becoming a target yourselves. Or make them afraid that some ugly information will leak out- sometimes the threat of something is worse than the thing itself.

5. If we therefore decide there's nothing we can do, and the king sentences us to death, and by evading that punishment we bring the kings wrath upon the order.. are we then breaching the code?

Technically, sure. But I think the question would be more focussed on the acts that brought you, and the Order, to the king's attention in the first place...

6. Does the fact that 2 of the gifted kids were born to one of our magus make a difference? They were unclaimed by our own covenant at this time

Your mistake. A Wizard's War could be called for such, especially if you told them and they didn't return the children in question. Also, it could be argued that they deprived the father of magic, not by buying them (honest mistake?), but by brain-wiping them- another "honest mistake", but less forgivable/correctable.

7. What are the implications of the fact that this is all taking place in another tribunals area? If we breach the code, will we be expected to turn up to their grand tribunal to answer charges? or would they be presented at the next stonehenge tribunal? What if we, or they fail to attend?

In short, you have fewer friends, but on the up side you don't have to live here after it's over. If charges are pressed, then yes, you'd better show, or else. If the "wronged party" wanted to, they could present their case at your Tribunal- Quasitores might do this, to see that you were properly censured before your peers.

8. If they refuse to hand the prince over, and we fail to steal him back. We can point out to them that their actions are likely to result in the king sending an army against the Sicillian covenant. However that won't happen unless we tell this king where the prince is. In those circumstances, have we breached the code .. by bringing a matter to the attention of the king that will bring down the wrath of an entire country upon a covenant, and potentially against the order in general?

I'm sure the Quasitores will bring this up at your trial. Look, you were screwed the moment you opened fire on a royal army- ya gotta ask yourselves- what did you really think would happen?

And your troubles don't end there. Another of your concerns here is not breeching other parts of the Code while you're investigating the situation. To "not pry into the affairs of other magi with magic" (or words to that effect) is difficult. Mundane methods and agents are the best (i.e., "safest" re not breeching the Code) approach.

9

Note to the posts above: the gifted children are not apprentices (no teaching has been going on), which means taking them is legal. Furthermore, it is normally considered a good thing to rescue a gifted child from the lowly life as a simple lab assistant...

10

Not that simple, Ulf, sorry.

The Code reads: “I will not deprive nor attempt to deprive any member of the Order of his magical power..."

There are many things besides an apprentice that (arguably) fall into that category, if to a lesser extent.

Altho' the peripheral code specifically addresses various instances involving Apprentices, there are many, many other things that are not specifically mentioned in the Code that would still fall under the "Depriving of magical power" heading. Stealing Vis, destroying books, etc. etc. all are "frowned upon" by the Order to one extent or another. Unless stealing generic lab equipment from another Covenant is not a crime at some level (and I think it is, at face value at least), then removing talented and rare lab assistants would be more so.

At the very worst, it would be clear grounds for a Wizard's War- and I don't think these guys want that.

11

There are referances to "rescuing" gifted people exploited as lab assistants. This IS quite legal, and applauded.

As for wizard's war - well, anyone can declare wizard's war. But it's a bloody hassel to go half across the known world to do so... Getting some new slaves are probably cheaper...

12

Oh, was unaware of those- Care to cite those "referances"?

13

It is worth mentioning that the reign of William the Conqueror was contemporaneous with the Norman conquest of Sicily. It is quite likely one of William's friends or distant relatives already has an army within striking distance of the offending covenant.

In answer to Berengar's 'easy way out' - this would be easy, but also costly, since the Quaesitores are very likely to learn of the PCs' own dubious conduct. The players will probably prefer to keep their indiscretion a secret ... thus allowing William to continue blackmailing them. (They may want to do some reasearch of their own, to find out how he knows so much about the Order.)

14

"In most Tribunals is a low crime to keep a Gifted
child merely as a lab assistant. In order to protect the
future of the Order, an unclaimed Gifted child can be
taken by the first magus who makes a formal and witnessed
offer to teach them the Hermetic Arts." (True Lineage p.52)

15

Speaking as a father, if you had two of my children and were going to brainwipe them and use them as meaty-magical-lab-powertools, I would do everything and anything in my power to either:

a) Get them back unharmed. Vengance might come later, depending on the speed with which they were returned and degree of harm experienced by my children.

b) Obliterate the magi involved. Obliterate their mundane families. Obliterate whomever they get their lunch from. Obliterate anyone and anything remotely associated with those people. I wouldn't care if it took me 20 years, 30 years, the rest of my life. I would absolutely and completely eradicate their miserable line from the face of the earth with such prejudice that anyone who ever even considered something similiar would think twice.

But that threatens a March or a War at the least, you say? Oh, I'd do it slow, over years and years...with intermediaries that are mundanely slain and framed. I'd become a focused engine of hate and destruction pointed at their families and I'd not care what powers I used to get it done. I might masquerade as the magi in question and do horrible, terrible things. I would stop at absolutely nothing. I would also give no warning about this intent, either. It's unspoken. It's obvious. Give back the children or anything you touch will be shattered and destroyed in the most painful and personal manner possible.

These are their children. There is nothing more precious to a parent, and I would think especially so for one who knows that it is impossible to have more children..

Nothing.

Just a point to consider.

-Ben.

16

Sooooo,

What happened?

Did paternal instinct win over legal concerns?

How did they resolve it?

On a side note, I have to say, these Bonisagi are not going to maintain a good reputation for long after this incident. Sure, they haven't broken Hermetic law, per se, but wow, are they dirtbags. It wouldn't surprise me to see the tribunal turn against them...hell, their own grogs turn against them. [Who wants to raise a family someplace that has child slaves?] It's this sort of behavior that I think drives magi to form covenants with strangers, or gives them the twisted flaws they often have.

-Ben.

17

Hi all.

With this plot thread over, as one of the players involved, i'll answer a few of the questions.

In the end a deal was struck. The Scillian magi would return all three of the children (the prince and the two children of one of the players). In return two of the magi served as lab assistants for 2 seasons and we all agreed to retrieve a lost item for the covenant. We were fully aware of the stigma of serving another magus in the lab but used the offer of our service as a sign of how desperate we were to get the kids back (thus implying that we might do other crazy and extreme things if they refused, even vastly powerful wizards don't want to be distracted by other magi trying to kill them).

Also the children were certainly NOT apprentices. The Scillian magi were using them as assistants, nothing more. No one was claiming them as apprentices since they had had their gift messed with and were thus useless as future-mages.

We didn't make war on the kings armies. We aren't (entirely) daft. The "Army" was actually a group of 15 heavily armed/armoured men at arms, a few knights and 40 odd footmen. They were all retainers of the local lord, this lord was relatively minor, a baron.

The Baron led his men against us because he wanted us to disarm our turb and remove our fortifications. He had previously come to an arrangement with us whereby he left us alone and we left him alone. He only changed his mind after he pacified his lands (following the Norman invasion of England) and got settled.

When we told him no he attacked and we gave him a damn good thrashing. We let him go (albeit stripped to his loincloth and a little roughed up).

Regardless, in the end the king was pleased to have his (mind wiped) son back and rewarded us (and averted any future problems with our baron) by gifting us the land our covenant stood on and that of a pair of local villages. Technically we are vassals of the king but we are keeping that quiet atm for obvious reasons.

18

Thank you for sharing!

Seems your next plot is already in play :smiley:

19

This still raises some interesting questions.

  • Can a sufficiently powerful mundane lord blackmail OOH mages by using the non-interference clause? Something along the lines of "If you don't do this, I shall make a lot of trouble to you and threaten your sodales, thus bringing you under the code's vengeful eye, which also protects me against you"?

  • The Stunted gift thing... what are the legal answers to such a thing should a quaesitor hear of it? After all, as pointed out by someone, they are endangering the future of the OOH. Of course, a lot of people would be interested in facing them in a wizard's war, but what would be the legal answer?
    If they're apprentices, you could claim this was bad treatment of apprentices and claim them as your own. If they're just lab assistants, you could also claim them. Could you then claim that what was done to them prior to their apprenticeship to you was a deprivation of your magical power? I doubt it.

20

I think so, but he should know about the Code. And I do not think any magus wants a non-magus to know this part of the Code, thus it will be obscure knowledge outside the Order.