Which to the general point of an magus with opened arts doing la work with "just" Magic Theory is a distinction without a difference.
You have a lab total equal to your Intelligence+magic theory+aura, with a zero in both arts.
Was the original point I was making after all.
It seems to me that what exactly opening the arts is is one of those topics that varied from author to author and never seemed important enough to try and bring together a cohesive explanation.
I thought that somewhere it is said that opening the arts is a kind of initiation. It's just that it's one that every mage in the order can do.
In fact, "normal" Supernatural Abilities all start with a score of 1 (i.e. 5 full xp).
You never start with with a score of 0, or 0(1).
If you access them from a Virtue, or from having your Gift opened to a particular Tradition, you start with a score of 1. If you learn them thanks to the Gift from some instructor, you must still obtain 5 or more xp in a single season to do so, meaning you start again with a score of 1+.
In some sense then, an Art at 0 is the equivalent of an Ability at 1, while an Ability at 0 is the equivalent of no Art at all.
Not at all! No Arts, no labwork.
So no, you cannot do labwork with "just" Magic Theory.
You need your Arts, even if they have a score of 0.
Which is very different from having no Arts.
Just like having MR 0 is very different from having no MR.
No, I don't think you get a score of 1 in them if you get them from having your Gift opened to a particular tradition. In fact, I am quite sure there is no such rule, and that there are several counterexamples.
For the Settuten hedge tradition we have
If the apprentice is
Gifted, then part of her apprenticeship
is the Opening of The Gift, which gives
her all five of the tradition’s Favored Abili-
ties at a score of zero without needing to
take the corresponding Virtues.
For Folk Witches it is said that
After apprenticeship, a Gifted folk witch
should have a minimum score of 1 in the
following Abilities: Animal Ken, Cursing,
Dowsing, Flight, Healing, Second Sight,
Shapeshifter, and Folk Witch Magic Theory.
Which would make little sense if they automatically got a score of 1 in most of those
Vitkir runes "have an initial value of 0 and are Accelerated Abilities."
So an Art of zero indicates exactly no xp spent, and no training whatsoever in that Art. If any amount of training (at least 1 xp) had been provided, then the Art would be at 1+. Roger that.
Now please cite support for your allegation that someone without Arts cannot work in a lab; it certainly seems that Gifted individuals can do so, whether or not their Gift has been opened. They contribute (as assistants) MT + Int bonus, and would have exactly the same (plus Aura & lab boni) for lab activities.
Hmm. Good catch. However, Settuten and VIktir Abilities are Accelerated (I specifically excluded those from my comment, though what I meant with "normal" might not have been clear).
As for Gifted Folk Witches, I looked closely and that seems ... undefined.
To me, it seems strange that an UnGifted Witch should start at 1 (because the Initiation gives her the Virtue, which automatically starts the Ability at 1) but a Gifted one at ... 0? 0(1)? The point is probably moot since Gifted Folk Witches must start with a score of 1 in every Supernatural Ability, but it does make a slight difference in terms of starting xp. Hmm. I'll need to look deeper into that.
At the cost of repeating myself, I would again point you to ArM5, p.164 (see above).
One season of instruction in the basics of Hermetic magic is what allows a Gifted apprentice to gain basic knowledge of the 15 Hermetic Arts. That basic knowledge is reflected in a score of 0 for each Art. Note that in such a season of instruction the apprentice (explicitly) learns absolutely nothing else except the 15 Arts at 0.
Repeatedly at the beginning of this discussion I specified that with "labwork" I meant "standard" labwork, such as enchaning devices, learning spells etc. I thought that was redundant by now, but evidently it was not. So yes, without the Arts, or even the Gift, you can help in the Lab, or set up a lab, or work in a lab by cleaning it. But you cannot (Hermetically) enchant devices, invent spells, bind familiars, etc.
Magic Sensitivity is one of the favored abilities of Settuten, and it is not accelerated.
unGifted Folk Witches need the corresponding virtue to get any supernatural ability - which typically includes a starting score of 1. Normally they would get initiated into those virtues at the beginning of their apprenticeship.
Gifted Folk WItches who have had their Gift opened get all their favored abilities without having to buy the virtues. They then learn the abilities during their apprenticeship.
I think the Gifted ones have the advantage there.
The core rules say that
"Characters cannot use Supernatural Abilities unless they have at least one experience point in the Ability."
which would make little sense unless it was indeed possible to have only one xp in the ability
We also have the Muspelli for which we have that
The Opening procedure takes a whole
season. The jotun teaches the Muspelli
how to adopt the etin-mod that is the
mainstay of Muspelli magic, and grants
him six favored Supernatural Abilities: four
from the jotun itself, and two from one of
its allies to complement its own. This pro-
cess grants no scores in these Supernatural
Abilities, but his favored Abilities are not
penalized by his other Supernatural Abili-
ties when he does learn them.
[...]
After apprenticeship, a Muspelli
must have a minimum score of 1 in the
six Favored Supernatural Abilities of his
patron.
Good points all. I definitely stand corrected on this then.
That sounds more like instruction in Magic Theory (or, for most mysteries a 'cult lore') and an initiation script. Of course, since The Mysteries (Revised Edition) was written after the core rules, nobody writing the core rules knew the correct (later) terminology. And, since the Initiate / Apprentice ends up with Arts at zero (possible only before a single xp is spent). it seems quite unlikely that the 'training' is in the (unTrainable) Arts, but might very well be in MT.
I do not think this is supported by (or explicitly spelled out in) the rules. I might concede the point for Familiars, since the Familiar is associated with the 'signature' Technique and Form of the magus -- but knowledge of Hermetic Magic Theory does seem to mean that a gifted person has exactly the theoretical framework needed to create new spells.
No. The rules are explicit in that, in that initial season of instruction, the apprentice learns absolutely nothing else except the Arts at 0. So, no Magic Theory. As for "training", the corebook unfortunately repeatedly uses "training" as a generic term for "instruction" rather than "Training as per the Training rules".
I believe that you might be the only person on this forum to assume that Gift + Magic Theory, without Arts, is enough to invent new spells or enchant devices.
I mean, Bonisagus, with just the Gift, developed Magic Theory and the Arts, so in principle someone could repeat the same feat, but a Gifted Folk Witch who somehow learned Magic Theory but never opened the Hermetic Arts would not be able to invent Hermetic spells or create Hermetic enchantments.
Let me add: this conversation is not only completely off-topic now, but it seems to me it's now rather unproductive so I'll just drop out!
But I did learn a useful thing about Gifted learning favoured Supernatural Abilities, thanks to ErikT!
No, the rules are explicit that the Initiate only ends up with the Hermetic Arts at 0. The method of this initiation is left undefined, other than it requires a season of the Mystagogue's time. The 'training' might very well be guidance through various trials and tasks; and the symbolic sacrifice of the Initiate's previously 'pure' state of ignorance.