I think 'Vitality' is a fine term - it's not just about attention, it's also about life and change. Living, thinking, creative humans can make do with providing attention, but only because they have the ability to create things, intangible things mainly - like ideas and dreams. Vitality can also be gained by the faries, by people doing certain things a certain way, or offering 'living' foodstuffs, apples, bread, beer, cheese etc.
And not only will the faerie get it, even if they have to kill you. They'll get it, even if it kills them. I like tha fact that some faeries - like the roadside knight - which actually thrive and gain vitality from being vanquished. Or faeries tormenting humans in order to goad them to banishing the fae by using folk remedies and rituals.
Hi,
I like that too.
Anyway,
Ken
I totally agree with these statements, with the only qualifier being that ArM and Regios and Auras being what they are, there should be an in-game distinction between Magic and Faerie that needs to be delineated. However, that's already been done.
I love the mechanics that RoP:F presented and for that alone it's enough, but I don't find the overarching concept compelling.
Which is fine. If the faeries described in ArM5 feel right to someone then use it. I believe the OP expressed a great deal of bitterness and disappointment because the fey in 5th ed are so dissimilar from previous editions, and I agree with the sentiment of his assessment, although I would have worded my critique more... tactfully. If you like faeries like this, fine, use them. I think the problem with the OP writer (was it Jarchus? sorry, I forget) is he hates the new faerie concept and is unable to cope with that. I encourage him to ignore or change the RAW when they cause such distress; it's really rather easy, doesn't take much work at all.
I disagree that faeries are humanocentric, at least within the Mythic Europe setting. We can sit back in the 21st century and pontificate "what did faeries mean?" in intellectual terms but I believe this is a false premise, at least IMS. Many faeries are concerned with human attention (or vitality, or whatever)--the brownies that live under the baseboard, the pixies in the field, the faerie knight who wants to be vanquished--but in folklore and elder myth they were not all so. IMS I base my fey on the peasant's-eye view of the wee folk, not the armchair historian under my electric light. The wild fey want to be wild, and they often want to be left alone. The faeries of wind and sky don't give a whit about lumbering ground-dwellers, the fey of the wild rushing streams want to play and be free.
Exactly my point. You just said it much more succinctly and concisely than I did.
Jachra, man! It can't be that hard to go back and look. ;D
And yes, I can be very, very untactful at times. I blame Nostalgia Critic and AVGN (or I would, if I were into blaming other people for my faults.)
But yeah... There's actually a lot of stuff I DO like in faeries, and I do use the book's resources, I was just very, very sad, because I was hoping for something else. In our group, I was always the one who sprung for faerie stories, I just loved trying to wrap my head around that undefinable mystery. Especially since I tend to be of the somewhat hard-headedly rational bent; trying to fathom something so unfathomable was fascinating. Trying to run it like it was in the book just felt empty and manipulative instead.
Also, good point, YR7: I dislike the loss of faerie politics (I believe someone put it very well how it's really kind of stupid to think of faeries as just waiting around for a human to come along so they can do a ten second blurb...)
But, hey, Ars Magica doesn't NEED to be exactly the same as written. The way my troupe runs the divine and infernal varies ever so slightly to taste, so why not Faeries too?
They don't, though. I seriously doubt faerie courts even exist when lacking witnesses. I think its stupider to imagine they really do have courts, given that these courts have absolutely no discernable effect (lacking human witnesses.) Are they just utterly impotent, or what?
But remember, it doesn't matter whether there are courts when people aren't around to see them. It only matters that they act is if there were when the people do eventually turn up. There is no way of knowing what happens when they are unobserved, because they are, well, unobserved.
And it shouldn't make any difference to the politics, apparent motivations, etc. All of those play out as you'd expect.It's just that as observers you're probably in the middle of things.
They only lack discernible effect because that's how the RoP:F rules were written. That's begging the question when the topic at hand is whether RoP:F did a good job with the fae.
Why is it not compelling that an unseasonably hot summer - too hot, even - could be the result of the Summer Court's effective politicking against the Winter Court? Why can the vitality that humans provide not simply be some additional, valuable resource akin to vis, instead of the only resource?
Also,
I have my own doubts, sirrah!
Hi,
Just want to chime in here. I think RoP: Faerie to be one of the better books in Ars Magica 5th edition so far. It took me a while to understand, and get my head around it, but after I did, it provides one of the two important things I feel was missing in the rules (the other one being more detailed rules for combat, but that'll be in Lords of Men, I guess, so I'm happy). If there's one thing with Ars Magica I'm a bit iffy about, it's that the mythic paradigm is taken a bit too far, but at the same time, it provides a great opportunity for roleplaying and a challenge for the Storyguide. And challenges are fun, right? 
So again, I'm very happy.
But I plan to run a legend inspired by Greek myth soon, and take it all out, epic, legendary fantasy style. And because of RoP: Faerie, we can do that in Ars Magica. Yes, after some read throughs, I love that book. Thanks guys, for writing it.
And release Lords of Men, already! 
I know, I know. Too early..
Cheers,
Eirik
Hi,
As promised, another perspective on Realms. This needs fleshing out. There's a verse in the Koran about God enjoying strife among men, which I'd have wanted to include, but I don't remember where it is (and Googling brings up too many other discussions about jihad in Islam.)
Anyway,
Ken
Realms and Supernatural Lore
The division of the supernatural into Faerie, Divine, Infernal and Magic is a Hermetic theory. Most traditions in Mythic Europe that seek to understanding of or communion with the supernatural do not see the larger world in this way.
Different Divine traditions often perceive each other's places and artifacts as unholy. A Cathar-aligned Supernatural Ability will pick up different distinctions than a Jewish one or a Hermetic one. Some magi suspect that the Divine transcends any particular Divine religion, as is the canonical view presented in the AM5 rules. Vanishingly few sainted practitioners of these religions agree. The Infernal may or may not exist. The spirits of the putative Magic Realm are angels, according to some traditions.
Magi interested in such matters tend to believe that the distinction among realms is at least as much about the spiritual state of the person as it is about what he is perceiving.
Most people experience the entire supernatural world as Faerie, even when they think they distinguish among faeries, angels, demons and magicians. The actual Aura detected by Hermetic Magic might not be Faerie, because the grammar of many Faerie stories require some other Aura! A faerie story about a Jew seeking blood for matzos, or a righteous man subject to temptations, or the ghost of a woman unjustly accused and executed might require different Auras. But the rules of engagement are Faerie in nature. God acts just like a Faerie, propitiated by the proper gifts, angered when certain taboos are broken, interested in certain kinds of stories, and so on. Similarly, demons act like faeries interested in other kinds of stories! This does not make God any less Divine or demons less Infernal; most people participate in these faerie tales because they simply are not able to able to understand the Divine for what it is, or the Infernal for what it is. Indeed, full apprehension of either is beyond mortal ken. Most people understand only their own story.
A very few people come closer to understanding the Divine, understanding the vastness of the world and even the role of God in the world through Magic. To a greater or lesser degree, these people also apprehend the invisible world through faerie, yet gain a greater vision through knowledge and affinity. This perspective often (but not always) involves an appreciation for just how large and majestic creation is compared to tiny, puny and ephemeral Man. There are entire magical realms and worlds closed to those of limited imagination. All of the world contains esoteric meaning that point to occult truths. Holy texts hold deeper meanings unlocked by meditation and study. The world is far older than the ignorant believe. The greater angels and spirits are vast beings with dimensions that dwarf the imagination. You might have lived before and might live again. God is beyond comprehension. Some of these traditions, such as Kabbalah, are steeped in religion yet remain Magical for all their mysticism and possible holiness, for Magic is the study of the truth of the universe, and the Divine is infinitely greater. (It is for this reason that knowledge of Kabbalah is considered perilous, unnecessary and of far lower esteem than knowledge and compassionate application of the Law or even simple piety. Some of the great rabbis were also Kabbalists, but that is not what made them great.) Other traditions, like that of House Criamon, sidestep the issue of the Divine entirely. Most Hedge traditions lack so rarified or mystical a perspective, yet they too are Magic.
The human approach to the Divine requires no secret knowledge, little or no study and no special gifts. The hallmark of the Divine is simplicity, humility, faith and the exaltation of the human soul. The most ignorant of peasants can embrace the Divine with sufficient faith. But this most rare of perspectives involves awe-inspiring kindness, compassion and belief. It involves looking beyond the world, beyond the causality within the world, beyond the rewards and pains of the world, to something that cannot be comprehended even through Grace. People caught up in a Faerie perspective see a beneficial wonder and cry, “Miracle! Miracle!” But the true miracle is the simple and enduring faith for its own sake, that briefly tore the veil between the mundane and the Divine.
The Infernal is also beyond all knowledge! The evil that we know is just a shadow of the greater darkness. The Infernal masks itself in many guises, and is glimpsed only through its works. Though incomprehensible, it is all too common, for its lures and transient rewards are well-understood. But even these are usually masked by faerie tales. A glimpse of the greater darkness, of evil for its own sake, darkness spiraling into darkness, occurs less often than people believe. A very few people believe that there is no Infernal at all, and even believers argue about its nature.
How might this work in practice?
One peasant goes to Mass, goes through the ritual, and leaves knowing that he is in God's good graces. A faerie transaction. Another does the same thing, and maybe, just maybe, he feels a touch of the Divine that is the ultimate reality behind the Faerie transaction. Both are real!
Meanwhile, a hedge magician summons the spirit of his grandfather. This should work; the canonical rule ought not be applied! After all, this makes a great start to a faerie story, so a faerie might happily play the role. A demon might show up to cause mischief. It is even possible that an angel might appear, if showing up as grandpa might promote some larger plan that ultimately redounds to the glory of God. And the ghost might show up too, especially if the soul is in Heaven and wants to show up, and even more especially if in your saga you don't want the infinite power of the Divine to be so obvious.
The four realms do not exist except as theoretical constructs that work for Hermetic Magi. Various religious, magical and folk traditions do exist. Supernatural Abilities should therefore not be aligned to a Realm, but to a tradition. A Jew or Muslim with Sense Holiness and Holiness ought to detect the obvious Unholiness of a church polluted by idols. In a saga vaguely true to real medieval sentiment, most Magic should register as at least a touch Unholy. The rare mystic who sees holiness in everything is not likely to be heeded when armies clash in the name of God, and ultimately, one of those armies might be in the right and the other best slaughtered.
Suggested Rule: A human's Supernatural Abilities are aligned to traditions, not Realms. A creature's Supernatural Abilities are aligned to a tradition if possible, to the creature itself if reasonable, and to a Realm if doing otherwise is difficult. (Thus, a being that one tradition treats as an angel might be dealt with as a demon by some other. This isn't a matter of belief defining reality, but of every being being unique to itself.)
Suggested Rule: Hermetic Magic cannot distinguish one realm from another; the existence and affiliations of the four realms are deduced from four extremely common patterns found by a new InVi Guideline, which replaces the ability to determine the realm of Aura: InVi 5—determine the bonus or penalty the local Aura adds to the casting of this spell, as well as the stability of the spell represented by the number of botch dice. Successfully casting a spell with this guideline tells the caster what bonus he got to the roll, and how many botch dice he would have needed to roll.
Suggested Rule: Any Hermetic spell that works on one supernatural realm works on all of them. Demon's Eternal Oblivion also harms angels, Ward against Faeries of the Water also wards against demons, a spell that sees into an Infernal regio will also see into a Magic regio, and so on. Thus, magi don't get to make moral decisions based on the Aura, which can, in any case, be faked.
Suggested Rule: A single Supernatural Lore Ability covers all four canonical Realm Lores, with a required qualifier that represents a perspective on the supernatural, usually a tradition. Supernatural Lore: Order of Hermes represents the perspective of most magi, which is slightly different from Realm Lore: House Merinita and very different from Realm Lore: Merkava Kabbala. It is possible to learn more than one of these, representing knowledge of multiple perspectives.