Familiar Bond enchantments across Aegis boundary

Magus A, who bound the familiar, is at one side of that bond, the familiar at the other, and the enchantment in the bond (ArM5 p.105). The bond, made of the three cords (ArM5 p.104), connects the two.

These cords may be seen by someone with the Second Sight Virtue, but they are otherwise imperceptible.

So they have a place in space, and neither magus A outside the Aegis nor his familiar within the Aegis can "carry" the entire bond.

I fully concede that it is only partly in the Aegis, and the Familiar is only carrying its end of the Bond cords.

I am sort of envisioning the bond cords something like an enchanted polearm lying across the Aegis boundary. Physically half in, half out.
And it appears I may be biased towards the idea that it should be in a single state rather than half and half, but I have no idea if this is supported by ME metaphysics.

My reading would be that the end the effect takes place on would determine whether it is affected by the aegis or not. This is not a simple answer though since one could instill a group effect that affects both parties to the bond.

I don't see arguments about metaphysics here. But the T: Boundary of the Aegis is well defined: so we know what it means, if the bond or polearm is half-inside and half-outside of the Aegis.
ArM5 p.161 has a rule specific for a device all-inside the Aegis, which I quoted above. It applies to neither the polearm nor the bond in our case.

Not the effect from where it is triggered?

By which quote? And Why? Because it is just covenient in a specific saga situation?

It seems more similar to an item activated at AC range than a spell or item trying to send its effect from outside the aegis.

And there would be no penalty for an activation by the familiar of an effect from within the aegis.

See (ArM5 p.105)

If the enchantment affects only the maga, it is under the control of the familiar. If it affects only the familiar, it is under the control of the maga.

But in any case, the enchanted device to be triggered is the bond here, and this is spread through the Aegis, partly within it and partly without.

So the familiar cannot teleport itself to magus A outside of the Aegis by itself. This is also not requested in the OP.

"Activating an item at AC range" might use guidelines like LoH p.107 box Rego Vim Guidelines Level 5, a Virtue or Breakthrough bestowing this guideline to magus A, a spell built using it, cast into the Aegis to trigger that item and overcoming the Aegis' resistance. None of this is possible with a standard effect enchanted into the familiar bond, as described in the OP.

Or it might use an additional enchantment in the bond, which is triggered by the familiar and then continuously scans the mind of magus A, whether to activate "Summon the Distant Familiar", to serve as an (ArM5 p.99) Linked Trigger for it. You need to ask your troupe, whether that is even possible for a bond, and which Virtues and/or Breakthroughs it requires.

Indeed. And this probably means that it is not resisted by the Aegis. Partially within counts as within, by the same reason that a Group partially within R:Voice range counts as within R:Voice: under Hermetic magic (as in geometry) it's the closest point of something that determines its "distance".

So you just need a magical polearm, let's call it a bangalore torpedo, and lay it across the border of an Aegis. Then you touch the end of the polearm that is still outside of that Aegis, and use this to trigger it to cause a big explosion at its end inside of that Aegis.

By your argument, the Aegis will not resist that effect and explosion, which thereby blows up a significant part or even all of the covenant, right? No kidding?

Inside or outside doesn't matter for enchanted items and the like.

"Effects from enchanted devices are resist-
ed by the Aegis unless the item was within the
Aegis at the time of casting, or was created with-
in the Aegis by someone who was part of the rit-
ual or in possession of a token."
(ArM5 p161)

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I finally found the thread regarding "enchanted devices are resisted" - How the Aegis of the Hearth works

Your example is not sufficiently detailed to be 100% sure about what you mean.
But if you mean that there's a polearm enchanted with some powerful Creo Ignem effect, and that bringing a portion of it into an existing Aegis will make the effect unresisted, in general you are wrong -- both in interpreting my argument and in the conclusions themselves.

However, by my argument if a magus is within the Aegis of the time of casting (e.g. because he is participating in the casting) even if his familiar is far away, then the bond will be partially within the Aegis at the time of casting, and its effects will not be resisted by the Aegis.

By the same reasoning, if a magus manages to sneak his familiar into a foreign covenant, so that the familiar is present at the recasting of that covenant's Aegis even if the magus is not, then yes, the magus can activate the familiar bond with e.g. a CrIg effect that sheathes the familiar in fire -- and that fire will not be resisted by the Aegis.

ErikT is correct. I'm not sure why so many people are looking for the loophole that would make the Aegis redundant. The Aegis was made to block stuff, not be overruled on technicalities.


Yes, in those special cases - where either the magus or his familiar actually participate in the casting of the Aegis, then I agree that the bond enchantments would not be resisted by the Aegis.
Same if either of them has been formally invited into the Aegis and given a token for it.
But even in this case, if the individual left on the outside has Might, they will suffer the usual problems with entering the Aegis.

But if instead one of the pair just sneaks inside the Aegis without being properly invited, the bond enchantments will be resisted normally by the Aegis.

Now I have visions of people with second sight seeing just the bonds stretched across the countryside where magus and familiar are separated by a significant distance. Or are the bonds non-linear? Or would they go through the earth instead...

Yes, exactly that effect, but unless the Aegis criteria for items was met you could spam the item all you wanted with that AC range activation power and the item effect would never actually go off because it was inside the Aegis. If the Aegis item criteria is met then it's fine and it can go off.

Edit: Note that the aegis does not actually block the bond itself, just the effects.

Yep, this bothers me as well. I'm inclined to say the cords are only visible for second sight if either magi or familiar are in range of what second sight can reasonably detect. This incidentally means if you're in a room, and a familiar is on the south side of a wall, and the magi on the north side of a wall, and you see neither, you don't see the familiar bond extending accross that room either, until you see one or the other.

Who knows, it could be something like a BDSM couple at a play party wearing matching cuff and collar- easily identified and symbolically connected but without a leash stretching across the room.

This is slightly embarrassing,

But I seem to have overlooked where the rules for resisting enchantments are. And there is probably a way for the enchantment to be 'boosted' so it defeats the resistance. Having a Penetration higher than the level of the Aegis, or is that just for spells?

The description for Aegis of the Hearth talk about how spells are resisted and need to penetrate a MR equal to the level of the Aegis. It also says enchanted devices are resisted. Those are the only places in the description where the word "resisted" is used, so the logical conclusion is that effects from enchanted devices also need to penetrate just like spells.
The discussion here is about the enchanted bonds between familiar and magus, but those are in most respects treated just like enchanted devices.