Fire Damage

[rich_evans]

I found the Heat and Corrosion section on ArM5 p 181 where is says that complete immersion in flames quadruples the damage bonus of fire and also that the spell damage numbers already take this into account. Really?

Looking at Coat of Flames (p140) the target is swathed in flames for +5 damage. I take this to be complete immersion, but maybe I'm wrong. Immersion is quadruple damage. On the same page Blade of the Virulent Flame also does +5 damage, also based on the same guideline, but I suspect that whoever you hit with the sword is not completely immersed in flames.

Perhaps this is just a fubar with these two spells but it looks to me like each of the Creo Ignem spells is pretty squarely rooted on the guidelines.

I see two answers to this. First, subtract from the guidelines for normal fire damage. This gives pretty low damage numbers to fire. If I manually create a fire hot enough to boil water (+5 damage without the special shape) and stick my hand in (hand/foot does base damage) does that fire do +1.25 damage?

Or, the Heat and Corrosion section is wrong and multiply the damage for some spells that do more than touch the target, so Coat of Flames would do +20 damage. I'm not sure if that is too much, but it is a 5th magnitude spell.

Have I missed an errata?

[Xavi]

Heat and corrosion is fine. What happens with those spells is that nobody compared them with that table. They have been around for several editions of the game now, with the exact same effects in each edition. They are legacy spells, nothing more But yes, you are right that they ar einconsistent with the herat and corrosion table. Pillum of fire is also immersion, BTW.

HOWEVER this was "solved" in ArM5 with a specific guidelines for CrIg that give you info on how much damage the efvfect does for immersion. In that sense, Pillum of fire of coat of flames are just really weak flames: it is total immersion, but weaker than being immersed in a bonfire. I had never noticed it (I assumed it was the other way around) but hey. It is magic, and the effects are spectacular enough as they are

Cheers,
Xavi

PS: setting someone's hair (all their hair*) on fire is a nice incapacitating spell that does no lethal damage, if you need one. It is quite expensive, though, but a nice use of non lethal ignem

[SpoonR]

Another interesting oops:
Level 5 is make an object "red-hot"
Level 10 is make an object "hot enough to melt lead"

However, per my memory and wikipedia, that is backwards. Lead melts at 330 C, red-hot is somewhere above 470C.

:mrgreen: And for Verditius magi interested in glass/pottery/cast iron, glass and iron both melt, and ceramic is normally fired at (baked in kiln) at around 1500C. I'd probably houserule that to be level 15, since I don't think there's much interesting done at temperatures in between red-hot and here.

[DIREWOLF75]

@SpoonR

Another interesting oops:
Level 5 is make an object "red-hot"
Level 10 is make an object "hot enough to melt lead"

However, per my memory and wikipedia, that is backwards. Lead melts at 330 C, red-hot is somewhere above 470C.

:mrgreen: And for Verditius magi interested in glass/pottery/cast iron, glass and iron both melt, and ceramic is normally fired at (baked in kiln) at around 1500C. I'd probably houserule that to be level 15, since I don't think there's much interesting done at temperatures in between red-hot and here.

You´re a bit late though.

Oops?

Just noticed what seems to be a mistake in CrIg spell guidelines. ~"heat an object to glow red-hot" is level 5. ~"heat an object enough to melt lead" is level 10. However, lead melts at below even 350C, while metal doesnt get "red-hot" until at the very minimal above 500C. Which is why you cant get red-hot lead. hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/StephanieLum.shtml I expect the level 10 base should be "melt metal"... And then there´s a really dodgy one... Level 4 ~"heat object enough to boil…

@David Chart

Yes, this is a mistake. It goes back to ArM4, and I honestly can't remember who did the Ignem guidelines for that. Might have been me. Might not.

It took 13 years for anyone to notice it and point it out, and changing the guidelines now would require going through all ArM5 books to check use of them, so that we don't introduce further inconsistencies.

Since, however, it took 13 years for anyone to notice, I am fairly confident that it isn't a critical problem in general. If it is for you, feel free to swap them at home.

[rich_evans]

Good to know I didn't read that wrong then. I don't read Pilum of Fire to be full immersion, just 2-foot wide. I'd peg that at "entire limb" territory, though I could be talked into "half the body" for a torso shot. Since there is no targeting for PoF, just an automatic hit, I'm not sure what was intended for this spell (and the rest for that matter). As good as ArM5 is, the half-percent of weirdness like this makes me wonder sometimes if a total reboot would have been better than the partial reboot we've got.

I'd suggest that those writing Ignem spells explicitly write into the spell description what type of immersion the spell entails. "This spell covers an entire limb in flames...."

Anyhow...

Rich

[Ejidoth]

I can't remember how much of this is canonical, how much is extrapolated from canon, and how much is just stuff I picked because it felt right, but I did a table for my own reference.

Damage

+0
An average punch

+1
Contact with ice

+2
Limb covered in ice
Impact from a ten foot fall on a soft surface
Average damage to inflict a Light Wound

+3
Body partially covered in ice
Contact with boiling water
Contact with lye
A punch from a strong individual

+4
Body encased in ice
Contact with steam
Cold sufficient to instantly freeze water
Average damage from being kicked by a horse

+5
Contact with a wood fire
Impact from a ten foot fall on a normal surface
Damage on impact from a falling stone the size of a man's fist
A punch from the strongest man
Average damage from a dagger
Talons of the Winds
Wielding the Invisible Sling

+6
Limb immersed in boiling water
Contact with boiling oil
Limb immersed in lye
Contact with quicklime

+7
Impact from a thirty foot fall on a soft surface

+8
Average damage to maim extremities, injure secondary organs, or fracture bones
Limb engulfed in steam

+9
Contact with molten lead
Body partially immersed in boiling water
Body partially immersed in lye

+10
Limb engulfed in a wood fire
Contact with red-hot metal
Contact with molten stone or precious metal
Impact from a ten foot fall on a hard surface
Damage on impact from a falling building-block or light catapult shot
Average damage from being kicked by a war horse or gored by a bull
Arc of Fiery Ribbons
Mighty Torrent of Water
Parching Wind
Piercing Shaft of Wood
The Crystal Dart
The Earth's Carbuncle

+12
Fully immersed in boiling water
Limb immersed in boiling oil
Contact with molten iron or glass
Fully immersed in lye
Limb immersed in quicklime
Impact from a fifty foot fall on a soft surface
Partially engulfed in steam

+13
Average damage to break bones, injure major organs, maim limbs, or destroy extremities

+15
Partially engulfed in wood fire
Impact from a thirty foot fall on a normal surface
Singed by true dragon-fire
Average damage from a greatsword
Pilum of Fire
Curse of the Desert

+16
Fully engulfed in steam
Sufficient heat to immediately vaporize water

+18
Limb immersed in molten lead
Body partially immersed in boiling oil
Body partially immersed in quicklime
Average damage to crush bone, puncture major organs, destroy secondary organs, or sever limbs.
Damage on impact from a large falling tree
Damage from a ballista shot

+20
Fully engulfed by wood fire
Limb encased in red-hot metal
Limb immersed in molten stone or precious metal
Sufficient heat to instantly set a person on fire
Wizard's Icy Grip

+21
Damage of a large falling boulder or heavy catapult shot
Average damage from a warhammer

+24
Limb immersed in molten iron or glass
Fully immersed in boiling oil
Fully immersed in quicklime

+25
Impact from a fifty foot fall on a normal surface
Infernal Smoke of Death
The Earth Split Asunder

+27
Body partially immersed in molten lead

+30
Body partially covered with red-hot metal
Body partially covered with molten stone or precious metal
Impact from a thirty foot fall on a hard surface
Damage from a direct lightning strike
Limb engulfed in true dragon-fire
Ball of Abysmal Flames

+35
Fully immersed in molten lead
Body partially immersed in molten iron or glass

+40
Encased in red-hot metal
Fully immersed in molten stone or precious metal

+45
Fully immersed in molten iron or glass
Partially engulfed in true dragon-fire
Last Flight of the Phoenix

+50
Impact from a fifty foot fall on a hard surface

+55
Maximum damage of non-ritual fire magic with no range or duration

+60
Fully engulfed in true dragon-fire; this would take multiple dragons combining breath weapons, or a truly massive dragon.

[ExarKun]

On this useful scale, where do you put immerged in lava?

[Ejidoth]

Lava is listed as 'molten stone', but it's still lava, of course.

I also have this little bit listed before all this, on my crazy-huge house rules thing:

" These bonuses were extracted directly from the damage calculations rather than the spell guidelines. They are notably more consistent than the guidelines listed under Creo Ignem and should be used instead.
In general, damage equivalent to 'contact with (molten substance)' is sufficient to melt something over the course of two minutes, while 'fully immersed in (molten substance) has more immediate results. Similar is true for contact with ice or red-hot substances: two minutes at the minimum damage level or instantaneous at the maximum.
Note that low-level Creo Ignem spells to ignite flammable materials bypass these requirements somewhat – they do what should be more damage, but they do it only to nonliving targets that are especially prone to catching fire."

[ExarKun]

I had used a +36 for lava, so i find it cool, your list has it at +40. It's solid.

[Xavi]

The funny thing is when you notice that under this scale Ignem magic uses really weak fires instead of powerful ones. Pof equal to "Partially engulfed in wood fire" is really weak in my mental scale of magic effects.

Cheers,
Xavi

[Ejidoth]

Don't forget, the environmental damage (engulfed in...) etc. are for contact over the course of a turn. Pilum of Fire is hotter and fiercer but probably doesn't burn for a full turn, so it's probably more comparable to a greatsword blow than a wood fire in terms of damage (same rating, though.)

This does allow the possibility of a magical napalm attack with exactly the same level and traits as pilum of fire where the target does burn for a full round, though, if you'd prefer that method. Then the heat would be comparable to wood fire. I imagine that to be quite painful.