Focus: Dead human products

hello there!

What would you consider "dead human products" to be as a focus? Minor or Major. I guess major, but to be sure.

I am referring mainly to bone, hair and skin, but others could apply as well, of course.

My question is because a focus in wolves (minor) would allow me to use the same kind of creation (wolf bones, wolf skin, wolf pelt...) while being minor. Dunno if the same could apply to human bodies, though, since Corpus is a full Art itself, instead of a bundle of broadly diverse species like Animal.

Thanks :slight_smile:

Cheers,

Xavi

EDIT: It seems I wrote this with my nose looking at the spelling....

I would say major for the exact same reason, even though all humanoid sentient shapes are affected by Corpus (such as some faeries and so on).

Definitely major.

I definitely disagree.

The focus is not "the human body" (which would be major), much less "all humanoid sentient shapes", but on the dead human body and it's "products". Nothing fae, nothing humanoid, nothing alive.

This would definitely be minor imo, as dead human bodies and their parts are a relatively tiny aspect of Corpus.

Note that if it's still connected, it's almost certainly NOT a "product". Hair is "alive" until it's removed, etc etc. Also, I'd make it clear that using such as Arcane Connections to a live body would not fall under this focus. Using Intellego on a part (hair, fingernail clippings, or dung) to gain information on the larger part would depend on what information was being sought - basic appearance might be acceptable (as that connection seems physical enough), but location would not (as that has little to do with the dead part).

Actually, my idea was more along the lines of Creo and Rego areas, not intellego :slight_smile: Create a sword out of a femur, raise the dead, create a shirt of hair (and make it comfortable with a muto requisite...), create a bone shield or armour, create a human skin refuge for the night.... That kind of stuff. Quite disgusting, but it has some positive characteristics (teleport spells do not require requisites, for example) and would work quite well for a necromancer methinks :slight_smile:

I can see how it can have broader uses like InCo searches and the like.

Cheers,

Xavi

If it applies only to Dead corpus, then I agree with Minor.

Hum...

It combines various minor magical foci such as necromancy and bones, with the added limitation that these are limited to humans.

The first would definitely make it major. Is the limitation enough to take it down to minor?

Limiting bones to human bones is no real limitation IMO.
Limiting Necromancy to human corpses... I've seen very little animal skeletons or zombies.

This is difficult to adjudicate, but I'd say make it major, with the GM being flexible about your various uses of it.

Minor. If it was Major, then it should include both Ghosts and Corpses (Necromancy), not just corpses.

And just because you said you have seen very little animal skeletons or animal zombies, I am gonna throw twenty-thousand undead squirls at you over in the Novus Mane game :smiley:

Minor. I don't care to look up the rules - I'm sure you've done that, but how often can you use such a focus and what for? Not too often, methinks, unless you create an entire magus around this focus and then it's okay because the rest fits.

A shame you didn't make it a poll, btw.

Major.

Necromancy (i.e. ghosts and corpses) does not affect things like making spears out of bone. With your focus you basically are using a substance to make or do all kinds of things, bone manacles, bone spears/swords/wargear, hair ropes, etc. Its very versatile.

Although you can't mess with ghosts (excellent informational tools) you can do all kinds of cool things with it not covered by necromancy.

My current magus IMS is a wolf magus. That is a minor focus (wolves) as per the RAW. He can do exactly what you just said: not spears, since no bone of a wolf is long enough, but certainly he has made bone swords for the grogs, created refuges for the night out of wolf pelts, casts an equivalent of PoF centered around wolves (Storm of Fangs) and sees in the night with Wolf Eyes and tracks prey with his wolfish smell as well as creating wolf pelts to cover himself when in social situations (yes, he is a little bit lacking in that last bit of abilities).

It also allows him to affect LIVE wolves as well

Minor focus, as per the RAW.

Why would it be major in the case of using human corpses? Since corpus is a separate Art, I still hessitate, but being "broad material" is not sufficient reason to me here....

Xavi

I agree with Xavi's reasoning. I say "Dead Bodies" counts as a Minor Focus, since it is a subset of a Form, and does not cover an entire Form in and of itself.

That's not the right measuring stick - a Minor Focus is slightly smaller than a Tech+Form combo, tho' it can be spread across several Arts. A Major Focus is supposed to be "smaller than a single Art", and "necromancy" is given as an example. But necromancy includes Mentem and some rare living targets, and this simply doesn't encompass that much, not near.

A single Art would be "Corpus", and this is vastly smaller than that. No healing, no combat spells whatsoever, no searching for living bodies, no spells that work on self, nothing that one can cast at that person right over there... any of which (but not "all") are invited in if this is ruled as "Major".

If "Healing" is allowed by the rules as Minor (CrCo, CrMe, & CrAn combined, with CrHe as "possible"), then "dead bodies" sounds far closer to Minor than Major.

Unrelated, but I'd have said no to all these things (save creating wolf pets and then mundanely making a refuge out of them, but certainly not creating a refuge from thin air), especially for a minor focus, as it seems to me you're very much overstretching your focus's range.

Does having a minor focus in birds helps me CrTe a house so long as it's bird-shaped? It may to you, but not to me.
As always, mileage... :wink:

The MATERIAL of the refuge is wolf pelts and bones. The created house is a Creo Animal spell, not a Cr Te spell.

No, it wouldn't help you, unless the material was feathers and bird bones. Not a very tough refuge if you ask me.

Cheers,

Xavi

Then, IMO, no, CrAn or not.

I'd allow you to create pelts, and then arrange then to form a refuge. Absolutely not creating an entire refuge out of thin air, especially not with a minor focus.

However, if your GM allows this, fine for you, go with it!!! :wink:

Why would I need 2 spells when I can have it with only one? And one spells that is quite common in fantasy literature, in fact, with wood houses being conjured from thin air.

Would you require 2 spells for a Mystic tower? One to create the stone and an other to arrange it in tower form? :open_mouth: It is a spell dealing with wolves and its derivatives and doing stuff with the wolf products. I utterly fail to see why a wolf focus could not work there.

Xavi

You misunderstood me.

Creating refuge through a spell is fine. It's just that using your minor focus to do it seems, to me, abusing, although flavorfull.
Same thing (correction: Worse thing) with the wolf-shaped pilum of flame.

Wolf shape in a POF would be aesthetics.

What I cast is a Storm of Fangs: A creo animal (wolf fangs) spell that causes +15 damage. Level 25. Like all the rest (well, most of them) of my wolf spells, the basis of the spell is XxAn. The only exception are the MuCo(An) spells to gain wolf characteristics (eyes, ears, snout,...) or produce some Mentem effects related to wolves (causing fear, mainly)

The fact that I am developing my spells and approach to problems in relation to my focus does not mean that the focus is broken, but that it drives my magic, don't you think?

Xavi

No, it drives your creativity, but your magic seems to have nothing to do with wolves but cosmetics.

Create a ship - a wolf-shaped ship, made from hardened wolf-skin.
Create a bridge - from wolf-bones.
Create a thunderstorm - and the clouds are all wolf-shaped.
Ward vs Fae - a circle of magical wolf protectors.
Causing fear - because wolves are "scary".
Running fast - because wolves can run fast.

No.

These spell effects have nothing to do with wolves, any more than sitting in front of the Mona Lisa is a sitting near a rural setting, or planting a lawn in the back of a truck makes it real estate.

Being creative and inserting some "wolf-related" tweak into a spell is not always enough.

ymmv, and clearly does. That's ok for you in your saga, but some would not accept it, for the above reasons.

Quite a few more things than cosmetics, in fact, but some of the effects are purely cosmetic. The ship the refuge and the bridge use wolf materials. In the case of the bridge and the ship it would certainly require a Muto requisite due to unnatural shape, though.

Otherwise you wouldn't allow a focus in wood in the creation of a wood ship? Or a focus in steel to create a regular steel blade? Assuming the contrary, why would a steel blade be more "focused" than a wolfbone blade? both are blades and both use the material as the focus....

The thunderstorm and the circular ward are purely cosmetic effects so no focus applicable. I have several spells like those as well.

Allowed. It must be an obvious effect. In my case I HOWL like a wolf and develop the face of a wolf when doing it, so highly unsuitable for a urban situation or discrete action.

Running fast only allowed if you transform yourself into a wolf, in which case you already run fast so it is a moot point.

OK. According to RAW all the above effects are 100% kosher, though, since "wolfness" is an integral part of the spell

Xavi