Form bonus for house sign

Exactly how does it work, and where in the book is it? I dont personally have that book so i cant check it just any time.

And BTW, i strongly agree that Hermetic virtues should be teachable, otherwise there´s no point in researching them further than as supernatural ones.

I would say no, because its a personal talent with something, rather than something that can be "translated" easily between persons. Thats also why i wouldnt count Puissant Art as a Hermetic virtue.

Just like that. Same rules as the core, but without the sutracting arts from Quality, and more vague fluff about the Virtues being Hermetic, even though they're supernatural abilities

Indeed. I think in our saga we've a vague houserule that things like that are gained after you've spent four to 6 seasons working with someone to learn it. As such, you'd need to be the Bonisagus' labslave for a long time. Mechanically useful, but as a hit in pride and Hermetic reputation (and a way of pissing off your Parens with the slight to their teaching ...) it's unlikely to happen often.

But there is nothing for how much XP is required to learn virtues WITHOUT associated Abilities...?

Oh and yes, i forgot to add last post that i also agree there is a need for grouping virtues better in this case, ie Hermetic, which are teachable, Mystery which are only teachable under special circumstances, ie initiation, because they´re not properly integrated into MT, and your suggested Lineage might be a good one as well, and the ones that are the result of inborn talents ONLY, ie never teachable or possible to gain beyond character creation.

Check out Atlas' free download of Ancient Magic for the latest iteration of these rules. Or at least something very close to them.

I consider it a good example of how Virtues are passed down a magical "lineage", though. You can do it with pure fluff - as Xavi insists. No special rules really required.

Hmm, I don't understand your point. AL says,

I take it you mean the bolded part. But this applies only to Major or Hermetic Breakthroughs that have an associated Ability (so require teaching). Minor Breakthroughs and any Breakthrough that doesn't rely on a Supernatural Ability can be integrated so seamlessly that any magus can use it by perusing a lab text or spending a season learning from someone who holds it. For Original Research, the old rules still apply and allow for books written about the Discovery, disseminating it throughout the Order. In both cases, the breakthrough is disseminated via purely Hermetic means (unless it involves a very non-Hermetic Supernatural Ability).

Now, personally I would allow learning a Major or Hermetic Breakthrough via initiation, based on the relevant Lore instead of the relevant supernatural Ability. I would then allow complete integration as yet another Major Breakthrough, but only as I think by the time this is done the saga will be over. I would not allow integration by books except for a Minor Breakthrough.

The problem, IMO, is that most virtues are too powerful to be allowed for any magus. The Major Breakthroughs represent such magical quirks, IMO. So you may learn Cyclic Magic through an initiation ritual passed down in your magical lineage (making the lineage a "mystery cult" of sorts, or just handled by fluff as per Self Confidence above) - usually with incurred flaws as well, or you may have it by your nature. But not everyone can start wielding these powers, or the game will become too powerful and complex.

The hedge traditions were, supposedly, long-ago integrated into Minor Breakthroughs that were disseminated throughout the Order, with perhaps a few Major ones who were thoroughly integrated as well. The rules allow for that, there is no problem with the RAW. It just takes more effort.

My own analysis (else-thread) showed that it doesn't really take that much, but that the ideal researcher isn't what I'd like him to be. I won't forbid Original Research for most things, but I will increase the costs as said analsis shows that it is too easy - I'd also suggest adopting somewhat different rules, to reward the player's high Lab Total and so on. What I won't allow is allowing the research of a Major or Hermetic Breakthrough to culminate in easily-disseminated virtues - I would require the Initiation Script, based on the appropriate Lore that I would make sure the characer develops as part of the process. I would allow complete integration as per the rules above as an additional Major Breakthrough, unless I feel the virtue is for some reason intrinsically incompatible with Hermetic magic; in that case I would require integration as a Hermetic Breakthrough, resulting in a wholly new Magic Theory ability and way of doing magic.

Yes, there is an element of inconsistency there. If I were to rewrite ArM, I would make each lineage into a minor mystery cult, with its own Lore. The master then initiates his apprentice into the virtues - and ordeals/flaws! - characteristic of the lineage. I would suggest most such Lores cannot exceed a score of 2, however - there is only so much insight that can be gained from this limited prespective.

Some lineages, of course, rely on blood-relations, or even Mythic Blood, and there are long-term effects of the method of education that are not suitable for the Mysteries mechanics (e.g. Tytalus Self Confidence). Of course, magi can develop virtues or flaws during their apprenticeship due to their Essential Nature, accidents, inadvertant "initiations" applied by their master without a solid theoretical (Lore, Script) foundation (e.g. Deficiency resulting from low scores in the relevant Art when opening the Arts of the apprentice), and so on.

I would say that a Bonisagus can teach Puissant Magic Theory - he teaches it to all his apprentices, after all. But I'd also say that this is taught not via initiation but rather through methods of apprenticeship, much like the Tytalus Self Confidence ability. So it would take nearly 15 years of "apprenticeship" to learn it from a Bonisagus magus.

Ahhh, but here's the thing. According to True Lineages, virtues without Supernatural Abilities may be taught if they're Hermetic. Also, the Virtues invented by Hermetic Magi with associated Abilities can be taught without penalty from the Arts, and further Integration makes it innate to all Hermetic Magi once disseminated as Lab texts.

The reinvented Virtues of Ancient Magic are Hermetic breakthroughs based on existing magic - as such, the rules say both that they may be taught and that they must be initiated.

It's this ambiguity that troubles me. Either things are teachable or not; either they're Hermetic or not. Specifically, Supernatural Abilities are, at face, less Hermetic than a virtue opening up a new Spell Guideline since they're not integrated into the Arts yet these may be taught more easily than the others. I have no real problem with some things being researched and that generating a Mystery virtue rather than an Hermetic Virtue, but the processes (if not necessarily the rules by a significant extent) should be different.

Take Rune Magic from Ancient Magic. It could be argued that it's actually two virtues - one a minor breakthrough (New target and duration) and one major (non-magical durable effects). The one seems perfectly valid for normal Lab-text dissemination, the other for initiation or further integration to a teachable virtue and then still further for true Hermetic integration.

Hermetic Alchemy, on the other hand, should be teachable as is as it's a very minor advance well within Hermetic limits. By the rules as written, however, if I reinvented it from the lab texts, ghost and potions of an Hermetic Alchemist, I'd need to create a mystery cult (and develop a Cult Lore) or go for another Minor Breakthrough (which may or may not be aided by Insight) and couldn't just pass it on to my apprentice. Said mystery cult (assuming a a magus of Int +2 and Pre +1, as might be reasonable for an average mage and sub-par for a research specialist) would require a Cult Lore of roughly 8 before a new script could reasonably be experimentally sought, and preferably more, requiring a minimum of 180XP for which no traditional sources exist. Of course, that assumes that it's for a Minor Virtue.

And that's before the can of worms that are Twilight granted Virtues is opened.

All of which is a lot of ranting about apparently small issues easily handwaved in any saga, but since Ars Magica is defined by the magic system and the way that shapes the behaviour of Hermetic Magi ... it strikes me as baffling that the rather fundamental issue of Virtues and Flaws has such haphazard and inconsistent treatment.

From what you´re saying then YR7, a magi can learn a hermetic virtue if there is a set of lab texts for the Original Research available, but its impossible for someone who has the virtue to teach it. Thats so illogical that its dreadful...

I also dont like the idea of not having something in between of not/poorly integrated and so fully integrated that virtues becomes redundant.

Exactly.

And i dont even expect that i understood correctly what i responded to, and im still the main rules arbiter(and meddler as some would say :slight_smile: ) in this group.

Yes, I see your point now.
Having re-read the OR rules, I find they lead to too easy dissemination of partially-integrated virtues, undermining the need for Mysteries - why undergo initiations and learn Cult Lore when you can just read a lab text or tractatus? I also find some of the rules to be ill-defined - it isn't clear whether learning Magic Theory teaches Minor Breakthroughs, and how is it possible to gain a virtue from a tractatus. The whole thing is written clumsily, the AM iteration is much better.

Well, the core rules work perfectly fine. I'm alright with supplements having small hickups like these :slight_smile:

Thing is, OR only allows the dissemination of fully-integrated, Hermetic ideas. Ancient magic allows you (or rather, should allow you) to research partially or fully integrated which may then be disseminated based on, well, research. Mysteries should thus be based on non-Hermetic magic gained by mystical means rather than hermetic research - and that, frankly, should be the result of investigations or Twilight or the like, with the quests and scripts and such coming later as research to stabilise the script.

Essentially, I'd rather Mysteries were social entities primarily, with some privileged access to magic, but not entirely divorced from Hermetic Theory. Cult Lores and the like are all very well for measuring devotion to the cult, but they don't at the moment do a very good job of tracking your understanding of mystery magic.

I did find it clear how Tractati teach Virtues - the HoH:TL says that Hermetic virtues can be taught even if they don't have an associated ability, as with other things, and the core says you can teach things if your overall quality, after modifiers, for your source if 5 or more. As for the magical theory bit, a minor breakthrough is a small perturbation or change to magic theory and so once you've seen how to do it and the changed theories, you can replicate it.

My exact opinion.

Cheers,

Xavi