Frightening Munckinism

Has he thought about hooking up with the Neo-Mercurians (TMRE p. 114ff)?
With all that Artes Liberales and Philosophiae, ritual magic seems like a shoe-in.

Well if you already focus on MuCo/An and self ransformation for personal booster spells it seems logica to do this by hermetic spells rather than a virtue

Which gives the problem of finding a suitable Major non-Hermetic Virtue for the free one. I for one have had problems with this a lot! I think there are a too limited range of Major Supernatural ones for instance. I know Magister or Artibus is explicitly mentioned as ok someplace, but I find it hard to choose any other good Social ones.

I don't think it's necessary to be particularly focussed on MuCo(An)- as stated above, a personal range version of Shape of the Woodland Prowler is only level 20, which means a starting character with Int +3 only needs to pick the right specialisation for MT and they can start with them with a combined TeFo(Fo) total of 10, which isn't all that hard.

I think Magister in Artibus is pretty much it - there's also Doctor of Faculty in A&A, which gives you 300xp, but requires you to spend 75xp in your Faculty area, which is unlikely to be useful in most cases.

Hmmm. The drawback from Mercurian Magic (only being able to cast spontaneous magic ceremonially) is clearly less of a drawback for him than for another magus, and the AL and Philosophiae certainly boost his ritual casting totals. He does potentially have difficulty learning rituals in the first place, though - his lab total is only 20 for any TeFo combination, and will probably never reach high totals for any particular combination unless he starts specialising. Enchanted items have much the same problem, of course, but it's easier to get bonuses to lab totals for those (although probably harder to get lab texts).

Definitely getting the Ceremonial casting mastery is nice as well, but I'm not sure any of the other Neo-Mercurian stuff is of much use. Due to the research requirements involved, it's not clear you can cast Hermetic Theurgy spontaneously.

While it is pretty cheap to become Shapeshifter virtue wise (compared to other Supernatural powers), you still have to spend some xp on it. It's still cheap compared to putting loads of xp in Arts and spells, epecially if you only use the Arts for shapechaning. But since the above design needs its vitues and xp for other things (namely Artes Liberales and Philosophiae) and already has the power to cast nearly any spell he might want to (even without adding it to his Grimoire) - I'd go for the Hermetic version. If you don't want high scores in Muto/Corpus/Animal, just spend a single virtue point on the Minor Focus, for that +5 or +8 that you need to reach a certain spell level, and you can use this for other things as well, like boosting your Soak.

This was a serious problem when we only had the Core rulebook, IMO. But personally I don't find it to be that much of an issue anymore. Strong Faerie Blood, Entrancement, Shapeshifter, Greater Immunity and Greater Purifying Touch were the original options. The latter is almost never encountered, and Entrancement, Immunity and Shapeshifter are also very rare choices for Magi (as far as I know) as the powers are commonly dublicated by Hermetic magic. That left us with Strong Faerie Blood and Giant Blood - both of which have clear advantages, but also tends to have a huge influence on the characters background, how he feels and interacts with the world.

The 'someplace' you mention is probably HoH:Societas, page 106. A specific section adresses this issue under the header: Magi Ex Miscellanea Without a Major Supernatural Ability. The Ex Miscellanea section in general taught us to make designs based on accelerated supernatural abilities, which IMO made the supernatural virtue thing make much more sense. This particular section, however, clearly states that the virtue is to be tied to some aspects of the magus's non-Hermetic tradition. Magister In arbitues is specifically mentioned, yes, but could also be another ability he posseses like Ways of the Land (with Ways of the City bordering Munchkinism in a very Urban setting). It might be suggestive of his background, or it could be designed 'following the rules for effects instilled into items, complete with uses per dau, and should not exceed seventh magnitude. It should have no more flexibility in it's effects than a Minor Magical Focus'. So IMO, there is lots of rooms for creativity, as always for Ex Miscellenea, which makes them ideal for Munchkinism.

Some general notes of Munchkinism have already been noted in the above.

For virtues always go for Skilled Parens, it is vastly overpowered IMO. After that take Puissant for abilities and Arts. Do not go for Affinity unless you need to break the age-limit, or need a boost on top of Puissant. All xp-virtues rock, and one should always avoid the virtues that grant 'study bonus' - we don't care about the long run when looking at power level straight out of gauntlet.

Flaws are not really neccessary to discuss as so many options are up for grasp, with Age Quickly being on of the more obvious though. For Hermetic ones you could pick so many different flaws that mess with lab work i various ways, that you could get most 'flaw requirements' covered here alone. Also I would recommend Incompatible Arts, as you could keep screwing up the same Form with 2-3 flaws. Or you could be selective and ask yourself how often you really use CreoVim or IntellegoAquam?
There are also ways to be creative with flaws though, and one option is particularly good: Covenant Upbringing. You are a bit odd, yes - but you are a Magus anyway and expect to live in a Covenant, and not in a Dressmakers Shop in Torino. On the plus side, you get to spend xp on Order of Hermes Lore, and more importantly Latin, even before apprenticeship. Throw in just a handful of years before Hermetic Schooling and you will have more than halved the xp requirements of the Starting Magi Recommended Minimum Abilities stuff. In essense, it's a free 50+ xp right there :slight_smile:

Puissant for Abilities and Affinity for Arts. For an Art score of 20, Affinity saves 70 xp while Puissant saves 57 xp. Moreover, Puissant is just as good if gained later.

Educated saves you 50 xp, of which 35 are necessary. Way better than Puissant at low scores.

Hello, i've been laughing hard reading this post... I contribute with one munchkiner up to he nose discused by our troupe for fun.

We ask for a munchkin character out from gaunlet that in the first season is going to be frightening? will not last much either... better you have 7 clones like in Pa**noia :laughing:

enigmatic wisdom
puisance/affinity (enigmatic)
driven (enigma) justify extra invested points
Twiligth mastery
cautious sorcerer
2*Great characteristic (intelligence)

3 minors of your choice

1 spell that gives to you 11 points of warping....

by the way.... you can go with 5-6 majors of your choice in 1 hour... dont expect it to last anyway :laughing:

-Whats the name of your criamon?
-sextus? septimus? i dont remember....


Perdo Bear

Bjornaer Magus

Giant Blood
Affinity (Perdo)
Puissant (Perdo)
Minor Magic Focus (Dispelling Wards)
Unbound Tongue
Subtle Magic

This Bjornaer begins with Undoing the Fabric of Animal at level 20 and 30, and Bears Leap (Wizards Leap, Animal.) A half dozen other buff spells and some utility spells.

Given he turns into a bear the size of an elephant, he has incredible wound ranges and toughness, ignoring measly things like Pilum of Fire. If he lands a blow the mage is dead. His normal form has no skills in anything but normal mage stuff; he relies on the Bear's abilities.

In battle, Perdo Bear simply turns into a bear and wails on people. If they cast spells such as ward vs. animals, he destroys their wards with ease.

Pretty simple, though I think he's already been beat for munchkin on this thread :smiley:

Well my discription didn't include all virtues in the book, just stating that Affinity should often be chosen after Puissant (or when you need to break the limits for Arts/Abilities compared to age); and that Puissant should be chosen after Skilled Parens. These rules are IMO almost universal when it comes to Gauntlet Munchkinism. Period. Maybe it wasn't clear in my post, but you should NOT ALWAYS take Puissant. Only if you would benefit from it compared to other virtues. I'm just saying that you would probably want to consider Puissant before Affinity for max power at Gauntlet level.

I agree, that in many cases the other xp granting virtues are very powerfull indeed, if you compare them to i.e. Puissant in terms of xp. If you can put the xp to good use, they will be better than Puissant Art, unless the Art reaches as high as 18, in which case Puissant will save you a single xp. Many designs are about getting as much xp as possible and an extra +50 at gaunlet means alot. Other designs (some of which we've seen in this thread) are not so xp-dependent, and rely heavily on their virtues, and thus would not benefit from xp-granting virtues on the same scale. Educated would often be better than Puissant Art, granted. But so would Warrior, if you focus on martial prowess in your design, or Mastered Spells if that is essential; but its not a universal thing. In the same thread as the one you commented on, I proposed the use of the flaw Covenant Upbringing, which in terms of Gauntlet Munchkinism makes Educated futile. Sure, you save 5 xp (or possibly more depending on your design) for Artes Liberales 1, but the 50 xp for Latin 4 is already paid for prior to apprenticeship!

BTW: If you go for an Art of 20 just past gauntlet, that alone is frightening Munckinism to me! :smiley:

And the fact that Puissant is just as good if gained later? I don't really get it. Do you expect to aquire Puissant for the Arts and Abilities you use much along the way? Does this really happen that often in your saga? It doesn't in ours that's for sure. But if we are looking far into the future, why not add in Book Learner? Because we are talking about being frightening just after Gauntlet: If you intend to overspecialize to have an Art of 20, I'd heavily suggest you go for Puissant Art as well - even though you could, in theory, with some luck, aquire that virtue through a mystery initiation and matching ordeal within the next two or three decades. Or maybe i need to review how we handle virtues in out Troupe...

Why this much Warping?
If you're trying to send others into twilight, penetration will matter.
If you're trying to get yourself into twilight, be sure to include twilight prone, and use a low level spell, you still need to control the twilight, and that's easier if you don't get too much Warping in a single go - remember you get to add a simple die's worth afterwards.

Actually not half as bad as you seem to think - he will be vulnerable to non-ward magics though.
Consider as a minimum learning the Call to Slumber and spending 5 XPs mastering it for Magic Resistence.
Plausibly a few Animal equivalents too.

I like the simplicity of it! Good design :smiley:

And there is lots of room for improvement, since you haven't detailed everything yet. I only see 9 points of virtues for example. Rereading it I might have spotted the 10th virtue as Skilled Parens though; Undoing the Fabric 0f 20 + 30 and Bear's Leap leaves only 60 spell levels or so. So unless those 'half a dozen buff spells and some utility spells' have an average level of 5, you'll run out of spell levels :slight_smile:

With his hight Perdo and mMF he can dispel most Wards, but only has spells focused on animal wards as it is. And if he doesn't intend to do much Perdo spellcasting other than that, then he might benefit from evening out his Perdo and Vim scores. That should give him a higher Penetration total anyway.

Also that Minor Magical Focus could possibly be broadened slightly to include more Perdo Vim effects such as counterspelling in general.

The design might also benefit from a clerverly designed Perdo Imaginem spell, that hides the magus while in his human form. When changing into his bear shape, however, the size range of the spell will be insufficient to hide his new massive size, and thus the spells effect will cease; "Suddently a massive, legendary, mystic, alpha male dire bear of virtue appears right in front if you, extending its paw as if to shake your hand... - or possibly shake your entire body given the size of the paw." Could be quite dramatic :stuck_out_tongue:

Oh, yeah - almost forgot; I may be repeating myself, but use that big fat bear body to burn some fatigue levels :slight_smile: Make room for Life Boost, please - you'll thank me later :laughing:

this is a munchkin char, so not caring at all about story... you want that warping to low your parma enter into twiligth and have a sure major virtue. Here the Int 5+ Enigmatic wisdom comes to face your rollings. When you pass the comprehension... not to botch at least, you have mastered twiligth so YOU CHOOSE you brand new Major virtue (the rest of players had not time to even open a cola can).
What about twiligth?
-Purple... repeat for the next one.
objective... first sesion 7 or 8 major virtues in less than 10 minuts... just out of gauntlet. Since then... not even think in twiligth prone or you are not going to arrive to the 3rd session, and remember... a Cautious sorceres with possible Flawless magic.

What makes me think... that a Touch of twiligth mastery 5 will do the job, and is a wonderfull magus combat spell... a bit nasty need to say.

maybe i missunderstood but IIRC a Bjornaer in animal form is not afeccted by mentem.

the only problem of this magus is that will need to have a HUGE sanctum... And imagine this one in a catacombs saga :laughing:
SG- You see the tunnel entrance...
Perdo bear- ist not a bit tigth?

Twilight Mastery is a virtue of the Path of Warping. So it is not sure if the SG will allow it.
I assume he will boot out your character after you gain your 7 major virtues. :smiley:

:smiley: please remember Thread's name... Frightening Munchkinism!!!!!! :mrgreen: but yes, I also would like to boot the char if i were the SG... well, or not... first flaw could be single minded... (muhahahaha bye bye intelligence 5, GL with your cucumber :laughing: )

The debate has raged. The Bjornear is still sentient though, so should react to mentem.
Regardless, unless you're always in bear shape, someone will drop you with the Call, IME :wink:


The corridor thing is the first thing I thought when reading the perdo bear character. Must be the evil SG swarm mind kickin' in :laughing:

Call to slumber is one of the most popular anti-human spells around here as well, generally at group target. Agony of the beast for animals, group as well. Surprisingly considering how evil some of our troupe members are, nobody thought so far to combine them to have the Cruciatus curse of the other thread, but that was a nice touch. Being protected against such ploys would be really useful for this character. I would consider the protection mastery for CtS and AotB a must for him. A secondary spell for combat in restricted spaces would be useful as well. Maybe becoming an Asp the size of a tree trunk or similar. Or becoming the hound of the baskervilles if you want an easier spell to cast.

Nice one in any case.


How many size adjustments will be needed to affect a bear "the size of an elephant"?

Life boost or even LLSM could make this very nasty for sure.

A bear the size of an elephant? 4 size modifiers. At most. Elephants are not that large after all. Base animal is Size +1.
I still prefer to roast them anyway, or drop something on their heads, but that is a question of personal taste.