Fun with Circles and Rings

Isn't the target the castle/circle?

I am pretty sure you don't have to visit every room and be aware of all the inhabitant of the castle for them to be affected.

if you say that "castle at the time of casting is affected as a structure, and thus if someone enters after, he is affected" then explain me this (from HOHS p32):"It is possible to pick up a weapon after becoming invisible: the weapon then remains visible and non magical" where the target is the image AND you have an extra magnitude for "moving image".

Here, the spell affects your image t0 but can't affect your image t1. But it still is your image and that was the target.

And by the way: (an invisible character) cannot be target by spells unless the caster either has an arcane connection to him, or is able to locate him. Area-affecting spells, such as arc of fiery ribbons, work normally".

Note that:

  • arc of fiery rubbon target is [group] of fire [ignem] and hits because their effect is to create something, and the fact that an invisible character takes damage is a consequence;
  • you cannot be targett unless you have an arcane connection (=> awareness of you) or "able to locate" => awareness.

In your case, the target is not [structure] of [mentem] but a structure full of [mentem]. Otherwise, structure spell can't just work. Thus, a castle full of mentem is not a castle full of mentem, +1. Different target.

Maine... good eye for syntax! Your reading makes a lot more sense.... everything within a ring [which was drawn as the magus cast t he spell] meaning it effects things within the ring, whether they are there before or after casting, but ceases to effect them when they leave.

Definately makes sense with respect to, for example, wards, and keeps "Ring" from being way, way too overpowered.

Very good point. I am not clear which side you are arguing for: is it sustained or immediate?

If it was sustained, the only reason the weapon could stay visible is lack of requisite. But then changing clothes would leave your old clothes visible on the ground. And you could pick something and put it in your pocket.

I don't see why moving would destroy an immediate version. I also see wards as immediate (the Moon/Ind version) as you are the target and future actions cannot change this. Same for CrCo recovery bonuses but those are not convincing as they could be said to be sustained. In fact, none of the ArM5 spells can be proven to be immediate, all non-Momentary AoE spells seem sustained. If we could find such a spell that cannot affect late members, then we'd have a proof that immediate spells can keep on affecting their targets.

If you make a Room-full of sleepers, I believe being invisible won't save me as you only need to sense the Room. Same for AoFB you mention and any other AoE .

:laughing: OTOH, "The spell affects everything within a single structure." I don't think your construct is necessary.

In a way, it seems weird that all long Duration Area spells are sustained and for some reason Ring/Circle would be immediate. There's a contradiction here.

Can you find a single long Duration Area spells that can be proven to be immediate? That would help your case for immediate Ring/Circle and help my case for invisibility to keep affecting its target even if immediate.

Tugdual. I'm not really arguing for a side.

I always read the rules preventing what was proposed here. Then I explained why. You counterexplained it brilliantly. But your counter explanation is confronting a canon explanation and I want to understand how you resolve the controversy :slight_smile:.

And I have never read spells as being "sustained", whatever this mean ^^.

I'm not seeing the reason for uncertainty with the rules in this case.

That's the short section covering the duration of Ring and the target of Circle as per the Core rulebook.

So if we combine them we get the effect that I draw/trace the circle at time of casting. everything inside the Circle at the time of casting is affected. Everything that was affected stays affected until either the Ring is broken, or the thing is removed from the Ring.

The language is specific and unambiguous.

Persons removed from the Circle are no longer valid under the ring duration and thus awaken. New person entering the circle are unaffected as they where not in the circle at the time of casting.

You've got half wrong and half right sections in each of your statements.

You clearly understood the Ring as "I draw/trace the circle at time of casting", why didn't you understand Circle the same way? Here lies the ambiguity you deny.

Lung of the Fish is sustained: a different Part of water is Muto'd to air every time you breathe. The Shrouded Glen is sustained: anyone entering the Boundary becomes affected. For every spell I could find, entities not affected initially will be affected when they enter the zone of effect.

Why would Circle be different from Room, Structure or Boundary? Why would it be the only area effect that is constrained to the time of casting?

If we can find a single Room+ spell that does not affect late comers, some Concentration+ Duration where we can enter the area after the time of casting, then we have support that Circle does not affect late comers. As it stands, reading Ring and Circle the same way makes more sense.

Yeah, I disagree.

It's wildly ambiguous. The spell effects "everything in a circle drawn at the time of casting." OK, so far so good.

This, however, could easily and reasonably mean two things:

1.) the caster draws a circle when casting the spell. Now, whenever somthing is in that circle, it is effeted.
2.) Everything in the circle when the circle is drawn is effected.

Option 1 makes a lot more sense to me than 2. Better relation to the sense that the Ring is sustaining the magic of the spell within its boundaries. Also more fun. Don't step inside any circles, if you don't know what they are.

This issue comes up pretty often in the forum!

Personally, I believe that the interpretation "Circle affects everything that is within a circle, which must be drawn at the time of the casting" is the correct one - both because it matches other areas/durations, and for grammatical reasons. As it's been pointed out, however, there are spells that confirm this interpretation, but also spells that contradict it.

I don't see any different point...
Out of the game for example. We put paint in a pool, if you are inside in that moment you are covered by the paint, but if you jump in the pool after there aren't different, you are covered by paint.
The Room, the Circle, the Strcuture, etc... are the same. The spell effect is contained in the area, you are enchanted passing or standing in the moment of the spell.

How to make wire when you have a deficiency in Rego.

Take a round pot and make a tiny hole near the bottom so that when the pot filled with water a fine, even stream shoots out. Put the pot on a pedestal or table with a box on the floor positioned so that it can catch the stream. Using the rim of the pot as your circle cast circle/ring MuTe(aq) that turs metal to water. Dump your scrap metal in the pot. As the steam of water passes the edge of the circle it reverts to a continuous metal wire that collects in the box.

I believe either type of Circle of Sleep spell is possible.

  1. Spell that once cast puts anyone to sleep once they enter the circle but they wake up if removed. This will happen for as long as it's duration lasts or until the circle is broken.

  2. Circle spell that puts everyone in the circle when the spell is cast to sleep. This happens once but they stay asleep until the duration of the spell expires even if they are removed from the circle. If the circle is broken the spell also ends and everyone wakes up.

The creator of the spell gets to choose which version they make. They could choose any duration though Ring changes how each version functions somewhat. A version 1 Ring duration spell will only end when the circle is broken. In a version 2 Ring spell the sleeping victims will not stay asleep if they leave the Circle because of the conditions of that duration.

You should have the same choice with say Room of Sleep or any other (Area Target) of Sleep spells.

The misunderstanding of Circle and Ring makes me think that some people play games to have uber-powerful magi that can do things well before they should be able to via an abuse of the rules.

If you as a Storyguide want to allow this then just houserule Circle and Ring and move on, just don't try to pretend that your rule is anything other than a houserule.

At the end of the day Circle is a target that is only related to the other targets in that it is a target. Just as Ring is a duration that is only related to other durations in that it is a duration.

Trying to make an arguement that Circle should work one way because Room/Structure/Boundary does is nonsensical. Similiarly for Ring.

I utterly respect your right to houserule anything the way you want. But stating your house rule is RAW and denying any other interpretation is non-sensical.

Do you have an answer to this, or do you accept your interpretation is not the only truth?

We can argue this point round and round and we aren't going to get anywhere. Your stance is obviously that your POV is correct and mine is wrong. Mine is the opposite.

I'm not denying that people can make an other interpretation, I'm just saying that it is an incorrect interpretation of the English language.

I'm probably missing something, but your above point is not being clearly made.

I am arguing that the valid targets of a circle target spell are those things that lie within a ring drawn (or traced) by the magus at the time of casting.

The issue is with Circle target + any non-momentary duration is that the spell does not recast itself after it is initially cast. It just sustains the initial effect. In fact the issue falls with any area target + non-momentary duration. It's just that Circle being on the same magnitude with Individual is the easiest for a player to abuse.

Take the common example of the ReMe "Circle of Sleep". The spell, when cast puts the target to sleep and keeps them asleep for the duration. The spell cannot recast itself to effect new targets when they enter the circle.

Maybe I can help explain the issue Tugdual is pointing out. To what is "at the time of casting" attached? Is "things that lie" tied to "time of casting" or is "ring drawn" tied to "time of casting"? This is the problem Tugdual is pointing out.


Ok, following it now. First off initial statement from the core "Circle: The spell effects everything within a ring drawn by the magus at the time of casting".

Grammatically "everything within a ring drawn by the magus" and "at the time of casting" both are descriptors of what and when "the spell effects".

What about the example spells that have been given here. Lungs of the Fish and Notes of Delightful Sound. Or How About Bestow the Blessing of Apollona from MoH pg 21.

Lungs of the Fish is target Part.

Notes of a Delightful Sound is target Room.

As for Bestow the Blessing of Apollona, don't have the book so can't comment.

The examples that you've provided though aren't Circle examples; Room, Part, etc have different descriptors to Circle, they also have higher magnitudes and that makes me ok with them working differently.

I should also clarify my earlier statement.

Should read:

It was lazy writing and now that it's been quoted I can't pretend it didn't happen :blush: