Greater immunity - Warping

Hello everyone,

I have a question regarding Greater Immunity - Warping. As per the virtue :

Warping is indeed common. It is also potentially really life altering, not deadly. It also removes the cap for the longevity of a magus who doesn't die of violence. Would you accept this iteration of the virtue in your sagas?


I wouldn't allow it.

Warping is one of the two big long-term threats to a magus. Given how powerful longevity rituals can be, it's probably the bigger of the two. Just opting out of that for 3 virtue points seems incredibly unfair.

On a Companion, it might be okay. But then there's no reason not to load you up with every beneficial enchantment known to the Order.

I think I'd allow immunity to warping from auras and hostile magic as a Greater Immunity.


No way.

How about Greater Immunity to Damage?

Or Greater Immunity to Botches?

Or Greater Immunity to Death?

Or Greater Immunity to Hermetic Magic?

Or Greater Immunity to Aging?

Like, no.

Now, there are ways to mitigate all of these, including Warping.

Want to be immune to Warping? Become a ghost or faerie or demon or angel or other supernatural thing.

Of course, feel free to do as you like in your saga. FWIW, there's a handy ritual that might help convincing the other players to agree, whose material components include significant quantities of pizza and beer...



My husband has done a lot of simulations on Longevity rituals and the order, and he's pretty sure that Magi die of old age not twilight. Unless you involve yourself in significantly risky activity (i.e. stories), twilight episodes are rare (Vis study doesn't count: the double botch rule means that it's still quite a small chance).

So this isn't as bad as it sounds, but mainly because the malus it is trying to avoid isn't that bad.

Bob Dillon

So, when reaching Warping 8, your character joins the retirement home for warped and elderly magi? No more stories then, and we watch 'Youth' ( ... 201501415/ ) once a week?

Whether Warping is an issue at all, and how serious it is, fully depends on the saga and its timing.


EDIT: Independently of the plans for a saga, no experienced troupe will allow a Greater Immunity: Warping, because a magus with some Enigmatic Wisdom and The Enigma's Gift (ArM5 p.157) can most easily exploit it to fish for beneficial scars in voluntarily entered Twilight (ArM5 p.88f).

How? Wouldn't the Greater Immunity stop the character from acquiring Warping Points and thus stop the character from entering Twilight?

That, and the fact that you can only choose to resist or enter Twilight, without knowing whether the magus gets a beneficial scar or not.

As the spell is worded, the immune magus would still enter Twilight.

But this is of course besides the point, as long as any means at all remains for that magus to enter Twilight. See for such e. g. RoP:M p.24f The Twilight Void.


This is correct. But with a decent Int, Enigmatic Wisdom and no Warping, a magus is well protected from negative scars.


With sufficient resources and time, all problems have solutions. But, since it says immune, one would think that you can't realize any benefits, either. Double dipping...

So you propose, that the immune magus just cannot enter the RoP:M Twilight Void in the Magic Realm at all? Or that its rules do not apply to that magus? Yes:


So if a fire spell says you take damage and someone has a Greater Immunity to heat and flame, you would still have that player take the damage? It's the same thing: inflict fire to cause damage vs. inflict warping to cause twilight.


As previously mentionned, there are other ways.

Read carefully:

So it is not "inflict warping to cause twilight", but inflict Warping - and magi might go into Twilight.

A magus can also visit the Twilight Void (RoP:M p.24ff) without having gained Warping to do so. A spell to transport a Criamon there more or less directly is quite possible - even if that Criamon has no dubious Greater Immunity: Warping. There he can confront Twilight, attempt to comprehend it, and acquire Virtues if he succeeds. Though without the immunity, such attempts cause significant Warping to him.

A troupe allowing a Greater Immunity: Warping would need to modify The Enigma's Gift. And it also needs to revisit and change the rules for the Twilight Void.
A beginning Criamon (Int+3, Enigmatic Wisdom +3 (Comprehend Twilight), Warping 0) will more often than nine times out of ten comprehend his Twilight, and with the immunity nothing would keep him from trying again and again. So he would gather new Virtues at a staggering rate.



All this means is that the magus has gained WP, so must check for Twilight in the normal way.

This "and" of which you speak does not exist. The spell guideline being used is rather clear.

Spells that transport someone to the Twilight Void are not "the normal way," and RAW, not only require a different guideline, but using that guideline requires a Breakthrough.



You have graciously copied above the "and" of which you claim that it is not there, saving me some work.

The fully written relevant CrVi guideline begins

So The Enigma's Gift creates "a burst of magic", and not some Warping Points directly. Through this "burst of magic" the "target of the spell gains four Warping Points and, if a Hermetic magus, must check whether he enters Twilight in the normal way." If the target is immune to the Warping, it is not necessarily also immune to the check for Twilight.
Think of it like this: A hapless troupe has allowed a character with Greater Immunity: Damage, and that character suffers a BoAF that penetrates. No, he takes no ArM5 p.178f Wounds, but his hair and beard are still burnt off by the fire, because that is not covered by Damage. Indeed, a barber could have taken it off without harming the character.
This is a little tricky, because the ArM5 rules were not written to accomodate abominations like Greater Immunity: Warping or Greater Immunity: Damage.

I might have involuntarily mislead you there and apologize.
Such spells are ReCo, not CrVi, and are in the core rules. The Leap of Homecoming (ArM5 p.135) is popular, as are R: Touch versions of it. All the caster needs is a working AC to a place in a regio, that allows the target access to the Twilight Void. The Axis Magica with the Hypostasis (both HoH:MC p.46 box) at its highest level is a most likely place for this. But as there are regios where you can teleport in with an AC, and others where you cannot, the final word here is with the SG.



Um, that's because "Warping Points" are a game mechanic. They do not really exist within world, in the same way that 'hit points' are an abstraction that do not exist within D&D worlds, except for parodies like (the totally excellent) Order of the Stick. Just as an amount of hp damage is an abstraction of an injurious game-world event, so to the gain of WP is an abstraction of exposure to strong magic or other supernatural power.

The CrVi creates a burst of magic whose strength is represented by the WP it inflicts, with all of the usual effects for being exposed to strong magic. The spell calls out checking for Twilight. Note that the magus does not have to check twice (once because you say so and once because gaining WP causes a check for Twilight), or even check once at a penalty (both for the WP and because you say the spell also does something else.)

I think your interpretation is tortured, but if it's fun for you and yours, enjoy.

My interpretation: The spell creates a burst of magic. The burst of magic is strong enough to inflict some number of WP. Adjudicate this in the normal way for a single incident of exposure to magic that causes WP.




With that reading, The Enigma's Gift as a spell in ArM5 makes little sense.

A spell based on the level 10 guideline in ArM5 p.157 box, as you read it, would have in all respects relevant for the game the same effect as The Enigma's Gift based on a level 20 guideline not even listed in the box. But it would be easier to learn and cast with better penetration. While nobody cares for the target's Warping Points.

CrVi 20 Archmagus Ovarwa's Most Enigmatic Gift (R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind) The target of the spell gains two Warping Points and hence, if a Hermetic magus, must by ArM5 p.88 check to see whether he enters Twilight. Although the burst of magic that causes the Warping lasts but a moment, the resulting Warping is permanent. (Base 10, +2 Voice)

Why isn't this spell then in the core rules instead?



It makes sense. It just isn't necessarily optimal, if Penetration is what you care about optimizing. Note that the 4WP version does have benefits over the 2WP version: a) The victim gains a fifth WP from being subject to a level 30 spell not designed for him. b) The rolls for Twilight have a greater penalty (5 WP from a single incident), so the Twilight is more likely to occur and more likely to be difficult.

grin Indeed, you gave a most apt title to the version you attribute to me. I can imagine a Criamon gifting an apprentice thusly, the most controlled Twilight experience he is ever likely to encounter, the bare minimum needed to be opened to the Twilight Void, in a controlled environment, with the best chances of comprehending it and getting something out of it.



And actually

Let's leave it at that, and try very hard to imagine a magus who buys a malus of three to his target's Twilight avoidance by taking a malus of ten to his own Penetration before.